The Need For More Therapists: High Demand, AI, and Career Flexibility

Larry Port (00:00):
Dream job or nightmare? It’s hard to know if a career that looks great on paper will actually lead you to the life you want to live. So welcome to DreamJob Cafe. I’m Larry Port. I’ll be asking different professionals the questions you won’t find anywhere else. So grab a coffee, settle in. This is Dream Job Cafe. Sponsored by Wastepark.co, where we help people navigate careers in a crazy world. Hello everybody, and welcome to another podcast of The Dream Job Cafe. Today I have Liza Brackbill with me. She is a psychotherapist, and this is a continuation of our healthcare series. So Liza, thank you for being with us today.

Liza Brackbill (00:39):
Thank you so much for having me.

Larry Port (00:41):
So this is pretty cool. So Liza, she just went out on her own and her firm is called the Pathways and Possibilities Counseling Services. And so Liza, tell me a little bit about what it is that you do as a psychotherapist. I think I know, but I’m not a hundred percent sure.

Liza Brackbill (00:59):
Sure. Yeah. So I am an outpatient psychotherapist. So what that means is I’m doing mental health counseling sessions with folks. Many of my clients meet with me once a week. Some people are every other week. Some people are once a month or less than that. And therapy is interesting because it can be so many different things. And every week can be different. Every person is different. The needs are always different. And there are a lot of different approaches to therapy as well. But what I do is kind of a mixture of supporting people through learning about their own patterns, figuring out what they want to do, and also teaching them skills to better regulate themselves, to strengthen their mental health. So it’s really kind of a mix of things. But I would say if I had to boil it down, it’s talking to people to help them.

Larry Port (01:59):
That’s great. Okay. So I’ve actually used a therapist on and off. And what I find it very useful, and one thing that I learned about the whole space is that there’s many different types of them. There’s people that work in cognitive behavioral therapy. And I used one of those people when I couldn’t find my keys and misplacing them and to change behaviors and so on and so forth. And I know there’s people that specialize in addiction. So do you kind of have a focus or do you use certain techniques? Or I don’t even know how to ask this question, but go ahead and

(02:34):
Take a shot at it.

Liza Brackbill (02:35):
Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I focus primarily on anxiety and anxiety related disorders, kind of anxiety adjacent disorders. So things like panic disorder, social anxiety disorder, hoarding disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder.

Larry Port (02:52):
Hoarding disorder?

Liza Brackbill (02:54):
Yeah.

Larry Port (02:55):
People who collect too much stuff.

Liza Brackbill (02:57):
Yeah. It’s an anxiety related disorder, which a lot of people maybe don’t know. I think sometimes we think about these things, why can’t that person let go of a lot of their things? And it’s like there’s an anxiety basis around throwing things away. Yeah. Yeah. So anxiety is kind of my sweet spot.

Larry Port (03:17):
Well, it seems like there’s a lot of that these days out there. So I would think that you might be busy. Is it my imagination or is it just part of what’s going on right now?

Liza Brackbill (03:27):
Yeah, it’s definitely not your imagination, but I think that there’s also just a lot more awareness. And I think we saw a huge change with mental health awareness in 2020 when COVID happened and all of a sudden it was like, “Hey, it’s okay to not feel okay.” And there was really just a lot of campaigning around mental health awareness where we really realized as a society, this is happening. I think we’re all feeling it right now to some degree in different ways. And so yes, I think with different things that are going on in the world and different pressures and the way the world is changing, there’s more anxiety. But it’s also always been there, I think to some degree. And now we just have more awareness of it and we’re saying, “Hey, it’s okay to come out and say, you need some help.”

Larry Port (04:18):
That’s fantastic. Yeah. And I know that something that’s been really popular on the bookshelves lately has been Jonathan Hate’s book, The Anxious Generation, which kind of attributes a lot of things to social media and that kind of usage. Do you play in that space too, just out of curiosity?

Liza Brackbill (04:35):
In the space of social media?

Larry Port (04:38):
Social media… kind of … I don’t even know what his really argument is, but I suppose that that is an actual phenomenon that’s happening to people.

Liza Brackbill (04:46):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I see it, especially with teenagers. I think they have just such a different ballgame going on with social media. I think even for me, when I was growing up, it was like we had social media maybe, but it was kind of adjacent to our social life. And for people growing up today, it is their social life. It’s fully integrated. And so a lot of their social life is sort of looking at these feeds where it’s a highlight reel and it’s not a realistic representation of their peers, but they’re comparing it to everything about themselves. So that’s not a good comparison. And I think that does create a lot of anxiety for sure. And there’s other things. Social media acts in a way the same way drugs and alcohol act. It’s a dopamine hit for our brain and it becomes addicting, but it’s not really good for us.

(05:43):
It’s not a healthy use of our time. And so over time, we don’t feel good because we’re using it so much, but we want more of it because of that dopamine.

Larry Port (05:53):
Interesting. So between the awareness and the different factors, societal factors, I would think that there’s a lot of, this is a bad way to say this, but there’s a lot of need for this field. I was going to say opportunities, but that sounds a little callous. But it sounds like there’s a lot of need for psychotherapy in the world these days. Would you say that there’s … When you were looking for work post or while you were finishing up school and thinking about the next phase, is that a challenging thing to do or is it not so hard to get placed in your first initial job?

Liza Brackbill (06:27):
Yeah. Well, so I can speak from the perspective of a therapist because I’ll say my background is in social work and there’s just so many different jobs that you can do within the field of social work. But as far as outpatient therapy goes, I didn’t find it hard to find jobs. I think there are more open offices than there are clinicians to fill and work in those offices. The last practice that I worked at, I think, let’s see here, there were five office spaces and at the most in the three years I was there, we only had four clinicians at a time. So there’s always an open office and that job posting was there. So I think in terms of there being job openings, they’re out there and I think that that’s only going to continue to progress more as the need does continue to grow.

Larry Port (07:21):
Yeah, I think so too. I have a friend who is from Argentina and in their society, therapy is just part of life. Everybody talks about their therapist, everybody goes to therapy and so on and so forth. And I feel like we’re not there, but I feel like we’re kind of tiptoeing in that direction. So I don’t know, but it just seems like it’s becoming more accepted, less stigmatized for people. So it does seem like it’s trending in the right direction. Can I ask you, along these lines, when it comes to mental health, there’s a lot of different jobs. There’s the psychiatrists and they’re the ones that can prescribe medication, I think. There’s psychologists, you’re a psychotherapist. Can you kind of break down the different kind of fields that there are and what you know about the paths that people have to take to get there?

Liza Brackbill (08:15):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So my background is in social work. I’m a licensed independent clinical social worker, which in each state, the designation is like some variation of that, slightly different. In Massachusetts, that’s what it’s called, LICSW. And so what I’m able to do is I can do things like diagnose, I can do things like treat through therapy and clinical interactions, but I can’t do something like prescribe or administer neuropsych testing. So those are reserved for different designations and they do require more schooling as well. So with what I do, it’s a master’s degree. If you wanted to be a psychologist, you need a PhD and psychologists can do everything that a social worker can do. They can also administer testing, so like neuropsych testing and that kind of a thing to diagnose some specific conditions. And then the other one you asked me, oh, psychiatrist.

(09:16):
Yeah. So psychiatrist is a doctor and that’s somebody that’s gone to medical school with a psychology angle basically as their specialization. And so there are sort of different things that you can do within the allowance of your license.

Larry Port (09:36):
Okay, gotcha. So yours is a master’s degree. So is that like two years? And then is there also a … I know with these medical and health related fields, there’s the schooling part and there’s like a practicum or some sort of lab experience. Is it all academic or how does the … Tell me a little bit about your degree, what that was like.

Liza Brackbill (10:01):
Yeah. So the master’s degree full-time takes about two years to complete for social work, and it’s not all academic. It has field experiences with it. That kind of varies by program. So some programs have one longer internship that you complete throughout the duration of your program. Mine actually had two. So I did about six months in one experience and then another year in another internship. So that’s part of it. And I think it’s actually an essential part of the schooling because especially with therapy, it’s you and another person behind closed doors, right? So you’re just kind of going into it. And it’s kind of weird at first because you’ve never done it. You’re kind of trying to apply these concepts from the classroom now with a real person in front of you and you don’t know what they’re going to come in there with or say or ask you for.

(10:55):
So it’s really essential that that’s a part of school because then you go back to class and you get support about it. And usually there is a designated class that you take alongside your internship where the purpose of the class is to discuss your internship experiences and discuss clinical interactions. And so you’re really getting a lot of support that way to help you learn through your experiences and also hear about your classmates’ experiences.

Larry Port (11:22):
So at some point you are sitting across from a patient for the very first time. How does that happen? Are they aware that you’re in training or do you foreshadow a psychotherapist? Tell me about just jumping in.

Liza Brackbill (11:38):
Yeah. I think that’s one of the hardest parts about entering the field. I remember when I was first getting started and thinking to myself like, “Man, I cannot wait for the day where this feels comfortable. I’m not kind of working myself up for every session that I’m about to go into.” And so it is hard at first. Shadowing can happen. I was lucky enough to be able to do that. I had a supervisor who was more than willing to let me sit in on her sessions and also her clients were willing to let me do that too, which is really special because they have to be willing and this is like-

Larry Port (12:15):
Yeah,

Liza Brackbill (12:16):
It’s a lot of trust. Yeah, definitely. So it does happen. I don’t think it’s a super standard part. It’s not always happening, but it can. And then you just go into it and you’ve got to try. And there is something called-

(12:34):
Jump right in. Jump right in, right into the fire. And there is something called process recordings. And what that is, is after you have a clinical interaction in your internship, so you do a therapy session, for example, you actually write out as much as you can remember a script of exactly what happened in that session. And then you kind of reflect on that and your supervisor also provides you with feedback and reflections on the interactions. And of course that’s all from memory because we’re not recording these things, but yeah, that’s a big part of processing all of it too and getting feedback.

Larry Port (13:16):
Tell me, so you’ve been doing this now for a while. When we were introduced, you mentioned something about you worked with people with severe mental health disorders. So you’ve been in the field for a little bit before you started your own practice. Tell me a little bit about your path. Were you a psychology undergraduate or just can you speak to that a little bit?

Liza Brackbill (13:39):
Yeah. Yeah. When I was a kid, this was one of the things that I always thought I would like to do, but I’m very indecisive. So I went to college and I did major in psychology and I just always was drawn to it. And I thought if I go further with this, then that’s great. If not, psychology is maybe a good background to have anyway, it could probably be applied to a lot of different jobs. So I did major in psychology, but right after college, I didn’t do anything even remotely related to this field. I actually was a guide in Yellowstone for three summers. Ooh,

Larry Port (14:17):
That

Liza Brackbill (14:17):
Sounds like

Larry Port (14:18):
Fun.

Liza Brackbill (14:18):
It was a lot of fun, yes. But it was seasonal. And then I would do other stuff at other times of the year. And I think after a few years of doing that, I was like, “Man, I don’t want to have five different tax documents anymore. I just want to have my one W2.” So I decided to go back to school from there. And the job that I had working with adults with severe mental illnesses, that was actually part of my schooling. So that was one of the internships that I did was that.

Larry Port (14:54):
Let me ask you a question because I like the fact that you took some time after college to really explore and take your time before you made that next move. Is that something that you would recommend that people do? Or looking back on that experience now, how do you feel about that?

Liza Brackbill (15:09):
Yeah, I’m so glad that I did that. I mean, I just wasn’t ready, I don’t think, when I first got out to make a decision to go invest more finances and time and everything into something more specific. So it’s hard because it’s got to be a balance. At some point, if you want to go further, you have to decide and you have to commit and you have to do it, but why does it have to be right when you get out of school? I mean, I think it’s a lot to think about if you’re not really sure, then take that time, go do something else that seems interesting. What I did was guiding. And I think there was a part of me that thought maybe I would do that long term, but I think there was also a part of me that was like, “You know what?

(15:55):
This seems like a cool job. I’m going to go have some fun summers and meet different people and see animals and stuff, and let me do that before I give some more thought to this. ” So yeah, I think it’s a good experience to have if you’re not sure yet. You don’t have to commit.

Larry Port (16:15):
Yeah. So I think for people who are listening to this podcast or trying to figure out their career direction, I think that there’s nothing wrong with that. You get mixed career advice from people where you need to hit it hard, you need to do your thing in college, you need to get your internship, you need to get your job. But you know what? It’s like at the end of the day, life is kind of short and you really need to have these experiences if you can in your life. And they really inform your next chapters really, really well, especially if you’re not dead set, 100% set on which path you want to take. I mean, I think it’s really good to back up and really see things and explore the world because you never know how things are going to play out or who you’re going to meet or what experience is going to lead to what experience.

(17:04):
So I think it’s phenomenal that you did that. So tell me a little bit about, if somebody’s maybe thinking about going into this field, I’m trying to put myself in the shoes of that person. Maybe they’d be concerned about like, okay, it’s a pretty serious endeavor to take somebody’s mental health into my hands or sit across from them. Who do you think will succeed in a field like this and who do you think should not be in this field?

Liza Brackbill (17:31):
Okay. I’m going to start with people that I think will succeed. I think if you want to help, you’re like at least 50% of the way there. I mean, you have to be somebody that wants to help people. And I think if you are that kind of person, you will find that almost everybody else in the field is that kind of person. And that’s something that’s so great about this field because there is so much support, especially when you’re just starting out. I mean, therapists, they want their clients to succeed, but they also want each other to succeed. And a big part of the field is talking to each other and getting support. So I think if you think of yourself as a helper, if you think of yourself as someone who is empathetic and maybe can feel for people who have not just the same, but different experiences as you.

(18:28):
I had a professor one time say that therapy was a mixture of science and art, and I always really loved that and that stuck with me. And I think it’s so true because it is the science of an evidence-based modality, like you said, cognitive behavior therapy or motivational interviewing or something. And these concepts that you learn in school, that’s the science, but then the art is how do you apply it to a real person in front of you that’s going to say things to you you can’t prepare for. So I think if you are a helper, if you describe yourself as empathetic, and if you’re someone who kind of likes a mixture of science and art, then this could be a good field for you.

Larry Port (19:15):
Oh, wow. Okay. That’s fantastic. All right. So people who shouldn’t go into it.

Liza Brackbill (19:19):
Yeah. I mean, you’ve got to have patience and you do have to sometimes think on your feet as well. I mean, again, you just can’t really prepare ahead of time for a session. I mean, you’re learning over time, but you have to be patient with your clients. You have to be patient with yourself because you don’t know everything. And so it’s a learning process. And I hope that I’m always going to be learning as long as I’m in this field, I would hope that I’m still sharpening my skills. And so I think if you can have that open mind, it’s helpful, but if you feel like you want to go into something and sort of be an expert at it right away and climb the ladder really fast, then it’s going to be hard for you.

Larry Port (20:08):
Interesting. Oh, that’s a great answer. So what about some of the stuff I assume that you deal with is pretty heavy. How about dealing with it? When you leave work, are you able to just shut it off or is it something that you think about or do you develop skills around that? How does that work?

Liza Brackbill (20:26):
Yeah, I think I’ve always been pretty lucky in that I just kind of went into it with the mindset that, okay, I’m not the end all be all in anybody’s life. I’m not going to come in here and save anybody. I’m just trying to make their life a little better and help them make their life a little better. People’s lives are going to go on with or without me in it, but if I can do my best to make their day or their week a little bit better or help them to have a skill that they didn’t have before, then I’m doing my job. And so I think you do have to sometimes have kind of thick skin and situations do come up. And again, it connects back to, it’s a learning process and some of it’s learning through doing. And if you can say at the end of the day that you’ve done your best and you’re trying to get better, then you have to be able to let that just be and know that it’s not going to be perfect every single time.

(21:29):
And to connect back to who should or shouldn’t be in the field, I think if you’re a person who’s not going to be able to do that and not be okay with you not going to do it perfectly every single time, it will be hard.

Larry Port (21:44):
Yeah. I would think also just hearing about somebody’s troubles or like if I was in your shoes, I might have trouble, I might be thinking about, “Oh my gosh, that poor guy,” or whatever like that after work. But I guess from that perspective, you’re able to just hang out on a hook at the end of the day or something like that?

Liza Brackbill (22:03):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you do have to take care of yourself and I think that that’s a big part of when you say are there kind of strategies for being able to leave work at work? Part of it is just your own mental wellness and get yourself a therapist if you’re feeling like you’re struggling with that kind of thing or it’s hard to leave work at work because it can be hard. And certainly when you have people on your caseload who are maybe struggling a little extra, you can worry about them. And I’m not going to say it never crosses your mind. It definitely does, but then I think you have to come back to what’s my role in their life? And my role is to show up for them once a week or more if needed, if they are struggling. And I’m going to do that and I’m going to do that to the best of my ability.

(22:54):
And then part of it is sort of trusting that they are also going to be able to take care of themselves. I remember once when I was going, this was when I was in school, I was going on vacation for one of the first times. I hadn’t taken a week off from my clients before. And I remember talking to my supervisor about it and saying, “I’m just really worried. Are people going to be okay?” And this and that. And she said to me, “It’s a little infantilizing to your clients. They can take care of themselves. You have to trust in them and believe in them.” And so I think that that’s a big part of it too, is just recognizing what your role is and believing in the people that you’re trying to help.

Larry Port (23:37):
Right. Well, if you’ve seen Freaky Friday a thousand times like I did with my kids growing up, then you see Jamie Lee Curtis running into problems with their client, Evan. But in any case, tell me what your day is like. Is it regular nine to five or talk about that a little bit and just how many patients do you see, that kind of thing?

Liza Brackbill (24:00):
Yeah. So most psychotherapists full-time is considered somewhere between maybe 24 to 30 clients a week. And with that, it does come out to about 40 hours of work because there’s other stuff that has to be done, like documentation and that kind of a thing. It’s not really nine to five, although I would say it can be. And I think with COVID and everything moving online, it has changed to look more like that because traditionally therapy hours were after work. They were in the evening or they were on the weekends. And I think that therapists were kind of required to work those hours a lot more than they are now. So after COVID happened, we started doing teletherapy and that wasn’t really a thing before COVID. I mean, maybe it was, but insurance didn’t really think it was a thing. They weren’t covering it. And now it’s covered up in the same exact way that in office therapy is because people have the flexibility to take an hour out of their workday to come see their therapist.

(25:13):
And so because of that, it can look a lot more like daytime hours. And I think from a work-life balance perspective for therapists, that’s probably been great. I mean, I entered the field while that was happening.

(25:27):
You do have to do some evening hours. At the last agency I worked at, we were required to work until 7:00 PM on two nights a week, but other than that, we could work any hours that we wanted as long as we were fulfilling our productivity requirement of that, again, between 24 and 30 client hours. So there’s a lot of flexibility with that. It can kind of look like whatever you want it to look like.

Larry Port (25:54):
Well, and also let’s point out that you went out on your own. So you have pathways and possibilities. You’re an entrepreneur now, so you also have to take care of your own billing, and you have to take care of your own marketing, and you have all these other things you have to do. So I mean, I guess there’s … And I don’t think that’s that uncommon for psychotherapists either to open their own shop. It’s kind of like attorneys or something. So that’s also something I guess that is a factor. Are you using AI?

Liza Brackbill (26:23):
AI, the hot topic of the field.

Larry Port (26:26):
Hot

Liza Brackbill (26:26):
Topic.

Larry Port (26:27):
I do

Liza Brackbill (26:28):
Use some of that.

Larry Port (26:29):
Are you worried about AI impacting the field? I mean, my take is no, because I want to talk to a human being. And as far as I can tell, you’re a human being and not ChatGPT right now.

Liza Brackbill (26:40):
Not a robot.

Larry Port (26:42):
Right.

Liza Brackbill (26:42):
Yeah.

Larry Port (26:42):
Okay. So what are your thoughts? I

Liza Brackbill (26:46):
Was worried. I was very worried initially. I was like, oh my God, this is going to take over. Why are they going to need us? Especially to connect what we were talking about with teenagers and stuff earlier. These younger generations, unfortunately, I think they’re a little more comfortable talking to a robot than they are a real person. It’s easier for them to sort of dump their problems on a robot. And I was worried about it. And I realized that we kind of have to normalize AI being a big part of our society. And they’ll come to therapy and they’ll tell me, I ran it through chat and I asked Chat what I should say. And I’m like, okay, it’s a tool. People are going to use it. People are going to ask Chat what they should say. Let’s talk about what Chat said you should say.

(27:45):
And let’s still have this human to human connection where we can normalize that AI is becoming a part of life that is integrated and many people are turning to as a tool, but it shouldn’t be the only tool. So I think I was initially more worried than I am now. I’ve kind of realized, okay, people use this, but I don’t think they’re relying on it.

Larry Port (28:09):
Yeah. I think it’s like, from my perspective, I think that the field is probably pretty insulated against it because I just think that this is a human field. And my perspective is that we’re on the threshold of a really great human age where we kind of rediscover it again. So I think that you’re in pretty good shape. It’s also like, I think they’re a ways away from truly figuring out that true feel. I don’t know if you saw the newspaper or the article when it was either the Wall Street Journal or it was the New York Times. It was a front page headline about somebody getting involved with a delusional relationship with an AI. I read it. And whenever the bot would be like, “Wait, I’m just an AI. You need to adjust your behavior because … ” And the guy would freak out. So people don’t know how to interact with these things.

(29:04):
So long story short is that I think the need for, and I’m not sure my opinion counts for anything, but I think you’re

Liza Brackbill (29:13):
In good shape. I think it does. I think it does because you’re a person, right? So it’s like, what do you want? Yes. And I do think you’re right. And I will say that, I mean, there is not, like we were talking about open offices before and there not being enough clinicians. There are not enough clinicians right now for the number of people that want to have therapy with a real person, right? There’s not a shortage of that. At my last practice, the group practice I worked at, we didn’t have a wait list because it would’ve just been too long. It was just like, you can call and if we have an opening when you call, then you can get it, but there’s so much demand that we’re not even keeping a wait list. So I think at least right now, it’s not showing signs of stopping to Just because AI is here.

(30:02):
So I think, and I hope that you’re right.

Larry Port (30:05):
Is it my perception correct, but it seems like there’s this field skews more female than male. Is there an issue getting male psychotherapists into the workforce or is that not an issue?

Liza Brackbill (30:20):
Yeah, you’re definitely right. I mean, it’s mostly white women out here and I’m obviously part of that demographic and we need some diversity. So if you’re a guy, if you’re anything that’s not a white woman, come on in because people sometimes they want to identify with their clinician. They want to see a clinician that looks like them or maybe has had similar life experiences based on their demographic and that’s fair. So yeah, I think it’s less common to see men for sure in the field, but we need them. We need you guys.

Larry Port (30:57):
Okay. Well, noted. If the podcast doesn’t work out, I may enroll. Sounds good. Okay. So let’s talk a couple other things. And we’re going to wrap it up with this. On a scale of one to 10, the family dinner test, so how likely are you to be able to enjoy a dinner with your family?

Liza Brackbill (31:16):
Oh, I think an eight.

Larry Port (31:17):
That’s pretty good. All right. We’ll take it.

Liza Brackbill (31:20):
Yep.

Larry Port (31:20):
Yeah. Okay. Let’s take it up a notch. Let’s say that you want to get involved, I call this the coaching, the little league test. If you want to coach a soccer team or something like that, on a scale of one to 10, how likely would you be able to keep a two or three night a week commitment?

Liza Brackbill (31:37):
Yeah, still pretty likely, especially two, three nights a week. Yeah, I would give that maybe a seven. Maybe it’s a little bit tougher, but I think you’re still pretty likely to be able to do that. Well,

Larry Port (31:48):
Maybe you’re not the main coach. Maybe you’re the co-manager or something like that. All

Liza Brackbill (31:52):
Right. Yeah. So cool. Absolutely. I think- Well,

Larry Port (31:55):
And also when the kid strikes out, you’d be able to say the right things to them because they’re a

Liza Brackbill (32:00):
Psychotherapist. So there’s that too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Larry Port (32:05):
Now the last one is we don’t like to talk numbers, but the Disney World test. This is, okay, could you take a family to Disney World on a psychotherapist salary? And if so, would you stay in the budget hotel, the moderate hotel, or could you splurge and go to the super fancy hotel?

Liza Brackbill (32:23):
Yeah. So what I’ll say about that is it varies widely in the field. So if you’re just starting out in the field, you might be more likely to be working in a community mental health center. It’s a little bit easier to get those kinds of jobs right out of school where maybe you’re not being paid quite as much and you are working more. However, as you progress in the field, it’s absolutely, it’s absolutely possible. And can you tell me the kinds of hotels we could be staying in again?

Larry Port (32:58):
All right. Well, let’s say a budget hotel. Let’s call that the Motel six. Or could you go and could you stay in a Hilton or could you stay in the super fancy Mickey Mouse Hotel?

Liza Brackbill (33:11):
Yeah. I think you’re probably going to be in sort of the mid-range most of the time. But that being said, it all depends on the rest of how you’re living your life. And if you save up, you probably could stay at that fancy hotel if that’s really what you wanted to do. So it’s absolutely not out of the question.

Larry Port (33:27):
All right. I may switch things now. I may switch things to Yellowstone because that seems like-

Liza Brackbill (33:33):
Yeah,

Larry Port (33:34):
Sure. Yeah. Let’s talk about that. More people may want to be going to Yellowstone now than Disney. All right. Well, this is wonderful. Liza, thank you so much for coming on our program. Any other closing thoughts? Are we good? Or you tell me.

Liza Brackbill (33:49):
I think the last thing that I would want to say is just that it’s a really, really rewarding field. If you are somebody who wants to help people, it’s pretty incredible. I keep this little … I actually have it right here on my desk. I keep this little notebook about all my client wins when people have a breakthrough and things go well because there are hard days in the field as well, but there are also really, really good days. So if you’re considering it, I think it’s a worthwhile consideration and endeavor.

Larry Port (34:21):
Fantastic. So I’ll tell you what, everybody, if you like this episode, please like it or share it with a friend. And if you can, be grateful for something today. Thank you, Liza.

Liza Brackbill (34:33):
Thank you so much.

Larry Port (34:35):
Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to Dream Job Cafe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And don’t forget to check out Wayspark.co, where we help people navigate careers in a crazy world.