Is Intake Undoing Your Marketing?

Karin (00:01.592)
Someone finds your firm, reads your site, and miraculously clicks call. And your marketing did its job. But then what happens next in the next few minutes decides whether you just got a client or if you paid for one that somebody else hires. So my guest today is Doug Venata, and he spent decades in sales before moving into legal intake. And now he’s the founder of HD Intake Solutions, where he helps firms turn more of the people who call

Into clients. And this is a topic I have been talking about for ages from every angle, where we had finance people talk come in and talk about if you just change the number of people who call by 5% into actual paid clients versus trying to change the number of the traffic, because that’s the number everybody’s looking at is the traffic number of people who are coming to your site. And they’re not looking at that number that happens.

between the click and the call and the that conversion. So what we’re gonna talk about today and the t the title for today’s show is is intake undoing all of your marketing. And come on people, we know that’s the case. Cleo has been talking about this for ages when they do all of their reports and they talk about how many people even answer their phone, how many people are just totally eroding the potential sale once the the call happens.

And so we’re gonna try to get to the bottom of that and actually turn this into a revenue generator where it’s not about the traffic. It’s not about the things that are happening on your website. It’s about what happens after that when you’ve already got them. You’re they’re like there in your hands. And let’s like make that happen. so, like I said, today the title is Is Intake Undoing Your Marketing. And Doug, thank you so much for being here.

Doug Vannatta (01:54.998)
Well, thank you for having me. It I kinda laughed when you said that, you know, talking about more leads I goes back to an old saying I heard once long ago. You can’t change anything by adding more of the same. Like you’ve got you’ve gotta change you how you’re handling those leads before it doesn’t matter if you’re gonna adding more leads is just gonna frustrate the problem instead of fix the problem.

Karin (02:08.021)
Exactly.

Karin (02:18.648)
Well, and we’ve talked about this on the show in in, like I said, a lot of different different angles where we will talk about it from the website. Like, if you get the traffic to the site and then your site sucks, like what are you doing? What is the point there? Let’s let’s make a plan where you get the traffic to your site and then your site does what it’s supposed to. Like, is your site functioning? Is it fast? It is it saying what it needs to say, or could you cover your logo and it basically says the same thing as every other website?

Doug Vannatta (02:34.111)
Right, right.

Karin (02:48.258)
This is the same idea, but a little bit farther down in that marketing funnel. So for those of you who have been following my show for a while, thank you to begin with. But you know that last year we talked about that marketing funnel and how it’s an upside-down triangle and you start at the top with the awareness. We’re past that awareness phase now. Like that’s huge. We’ve we’ve overcome that first hurdle and we’re past awareness. And now things are happening. And now you’re dropping the ball.

So let’s talk about first of all, actually before we get into that, we wanted to talk a little bit more about the marketing phase and how you even ended up on this show, right?

Doug Vannatta (03:28.299)
Yeah, so I I am active on LinkedIn and I reach out I’ve and kind of my LinkedIn strategy is not I I don’t I don’t have some wise sage advice for LinkedIn other than just to show up and be genuine. And that’s all I do. I read

Karin (03:35.009)
Yes.

Karin (03:49.228)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (03:52.928)
I like to look at or I like to read things that I’m interested in, which is pretty much only legal intake or legal operations. And then I genuinely comment on those posts. and because of that, people have started to notice me, reach out to me. I’ve I’ve gained friends, I’ve gained clients, I’ve gained so much just from genuinely commenting on people’s posts. And I started my own posting regimen. so I post at least once a day.

Karin (04:22.796)
Okay.

Doug Vannatta (04:22.921)
and and because I post about the same topic just from different perspectives, you know, I’ll talk about speed to lead one day and then I’ll talk about building trust the next. Still intake related. LinkedIn has now recognized that everything I talk about is related to that topic. So it shoots it out to all of the only people that read my post are in the legal world, whether it be legal marketing or attorneys, what have you. So

Karin (04:51.32)
Well, I kind of put you in the business development category. And I’m not sure if that’s even where you put yourself, but I will start I I wanted to start by saying that typically there are two categories that are immediate no’s for me, and it’s coaches and biz dev. And yeah, exactly. So on paper, this would have been a absolutely not like a quick no.

Doug Vannatta (04:54.166)
Doug Vannatta (05:08.657)
And that’s that’s what I do. I’m a hard pass.

Karin (05:19.434)
and I can’t remember if you came in through email or through just LinkedIn messages, but by the time you initially contacted me, I already had some familiarity with you and your name. And you also have this kind of clever, it’s almost a branding thing. Like if we’re talking about it from a marketing perspective, where you call yourself humble Doug in it’s sort of like tongue in cheek, right? Right. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (05:39.894)
Yes, I am humble Doug. Yes. Yeah, it’s totally ironic. It’s it was a nickname born out of irony. And then it it kind of took on a life of its own. And I jokingly made a comment one time that I wrote a book called The Ten Most Humble People and How I Taught the Other Nine and had my picture on the front of it. And somebody at my office created this book and

Karin (06:04.266)
Nice.

Doug Vannatta (06:05.119)
And it and it got passed around at the company Christmas party. It just became a whole thing. There’s merch now with hoodies that say humble dog. Like it’s crazy.

Karin (06:12.104)
Nice. I love it. Okay. So, but behind that, like the mechanics of what’s happening there is like you said before we started recording, if it if I just saw Doug, I probably wouldn’t remember your name. But because it’s this humble Doug, and I didn’t know what the story was behind all that, I’ve just seen your name and it’s different and memorable enough. And we all know that one of the key core

Doug Vannatta (06:26.773)
It dug’s boring.

Karin (06:39.648)
approaches and philosophies of marketing is to be memorable. that I felt like I had seen your name all over the place. So I told you, like when you first reached out, I was like, wait a second, did I already book this person? And why why do I feel like I’ve already got some awareness or knowledge or something? And then I went over to LinkedIn to see like, who is this guy? And I was like, it’s humble Doug. Okay. Yes. And

Doug Vannatta (07:06.645)
Yes.

Karin (07:08.928)
When you say that you comment on LinkedIn posts, it’s not you you put some thought and very like sincere comments. It’s not just like you like things and you’re like, nice job. You actually put some thought and complete sentences and yeah, exactly. There’s more to it than that. Like you’re you’re kind of underplaying your how you comment.

Doug Vannatta (07:22.795)
Yeah. Great post.

Doug Vannatta (07:28.844)
Way more.

Doug Vannatta (07:32.48)
Yeah, so when I c so the way I do LinkedIn, this is the the peak behind the curtain. I s I I spend about an hour or two, depending on the week and how much coffee I’ve had, creating my post for the next week or two weeks. Well, I post always a week or two out and schedule them. You can use a scheduling function. So I never I

Karin (07:46.552)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (07:57.856)
Anything I post on on LinkedIn, unless it’s obviously off the cuff, off the top of my head, like it makes no sense. then I that has all been planned out. So when I go on LinkedIn, I’m not sitting there staring at the the computer trying to think of something to say. What I go on LinkedIn to do every day, and I spend about 15 to 30 minutes doing this, is I just I go through and I read content that I that speaks to me.

Karin (08:02.294)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (08:09.26)
Yeah. And it should be like

Yeah. Right.

Doug Vannatta (08:26.059)
And then I genuinely comment back. If I have something to add to it, I’ll add to it. If I just think that it touched me in some way, like it it helped me in some way, I will thank them. And I do, I, I do also every Thursday, I have Thankful Thursday. You’re welcome to join me if you’d like. Every Thursday at noon, I thank somebody. and that’s that’s a thing I I I I like to do too. And that’s consistent. but yeah, if you just consistently show up and comment, genuinely genuine things. Yeah.

Karin (08:28.194)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (08:40.652)
Yeah.

Okay.

Karin (08:52.802)
Genuinely, yes. Yeah, I think that’s that is the unique thing, is that it’s genuine. We all see a lot of these kind of generic kind of garbage comments and posts. But the reason I wanted to bring that up is because number one, this is the marketing piece of our conversation. And the next part that we’re going to talk about when we get into this intake, this is getting into more like the sales and the coachy and that that kind of stuff where

It is a little bit outside of the kind of marketing stuff that we typically talk about, but I want to tie it together because I think it goes hand in hand. And it’s not like to me, it’s not so much outside of it as it overlaps between our worlds. and what I the reason I wanted to talk about your LinkedIn work is because I think in this intake stuff where people are getting it wrong, as I’m saying in the title, you are totally ruining all this work that you’re doing.

That leads up to that call. And so you have spent all this time, this thought, you know, put this thought and effort into all this LinkedIn work. And it is working because, like I said, I would not normally, like on paper, I would not normally have had someone that has your sort of credentials. I would have like, no. But because you had already made that connection and dud done the work and and done the, you know, showing up, be consistency, be patient.

And then you reached out. Now imagine if this was a law firm and they did all that work. And now the kind of rules are a little bit different, but they’ve done all that work. And then the client reaches out. So you’ve got that person, and now they’re at we’re at this intake step. And this is where everything goes wrong. This is where stuff is just falling apart. we know that a lot of times.

The phone’s not even being answered, or it’s being answered by AI. Or what else is happening here? Let’s start with the problems and the common situation that you see.

Doug Vannatta (10:56.151)
So the yeah, so the the the common thing that I see is there’s firms are failing to build trust with their prospective clients. They put all this time and effort into like the website, like you said. what what would it what good would it do me if I told people how much I love speed to lead? And I talk speed to lead in every c every LinkedIn post, every comment, I’m talking about speed to lead, and then you call me and I call you back two weeks later.

That that is going to indicate to you that I’m full of crap, right? Like that nob you just do not trust me. So regardless of what I say after that, you already don’t trust what I say. So what I see a lot of firms do is they don’t have processes in place. So then their website will say something like, We’re available 24/7, but then somebody calls at 7:30 p.m. and it goes to voicemail. Well, you’re not available 24/70.

Karin (11:29.836)
Yes, yeah.

Karin (11:37.442)
Doesn’t matter. Yeah.

Karin (11:49.336)
Yeah.

Karin (11:52.972)
Yeah. Right.

Doug Vannatta (11:55.254)
You just told that person that you’re a liar and so now they don’t trust you.

Karin (11:58.231)
Yeah, yours not sto that doesn’t start out on the a great foot when they’re like instantly like, you lied me. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (12:01.813)
Right. So

Exactly. Every every conversation, every little interaction we have with the client, whether it’s in person, whether it’s over the phone, or whether it’s their interaction with our website or our marketing in some some way, every little interaction either builds trust or it erodes it. And so what I try to do is help people see that from the client’s perspective and build the trust early and infuse the c infuse the relationship with trust so that way the

Karin (12:29.74)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (12:33.483)
The back end of the relationship is way easier.

Karin (12:36.108)
Okay, so when you talk about building it early, are you talking about before the call in that marketing awareness phase? Or are you talking about early in the call or both? Okay. Okay.

Doug Vannatta (12:44.321)
Both. Both. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you’ve got to do what you tell people you’re gonna do, right? That’s the that’s the the most basic. If you tell somebody you can call me and they call you and you don’t answer the phone, I mean it’s it’s not rocket science. That is not that’s not being trustworthy.

Karin (13:00.01)
No. No. Right. Okay. So let me give you a scenario and walk you through this. And I think this one is, I think this is a good example because it’s not just like I didn’t answer the phone. and this like it’s real story. And then tell me how you would coach one of your clients through like recovering from this. So when I was first, first setting up this podcast.

And Simona, who edits the podcast, is gonna love that I’m bringing up this story again. But okay, so I’m first thinking of setting up this podcast, and I’m looking for a producer. And I get a handful of recommendations, and but then I land on this site, and it’s like, you know, spoiler alert, it’s for this woman, Simona, who is my current podcast producer, always has been, best Canadian I know. so I land on her site and

I instantly just start connecting with her message. She’s got good imagery. It’s all and and she’s saying some good stuff. Plus, I really love working with women business owners. So right away, and I’d already talked to a couple men podcast producers that just gave me the ick. Like they just were absolutely not. And I just knew within the first couple minutes this was not it. So, but so then I’m clicking through her website.

Doug Vannatta (14:12.053)
Yeah.

Karin (14:21.44)
And I get it, it’s totally infected with malware. And and so I go to try to contact her, and I can’t because it’s like taking me to some Ukrainian site. It’s it’s totally impacted, right? Like it’s it’s got it it’s just been infected or you know, spammed or whatever. So, so then the best part is I still had this feeling and I was like, okay, I’m gonna try to overlook this.

And I want to reach out, but I also I I could fix this for her. Me and my team could fix this, but I also don’t want it to come across like I’m approaching her from a sales perspective because I don’t really care. So, long story short, I know she hesitated because it normally it takes her five minutes to reply to any email. And it took maybe a day. And and then she realized she had checked me out and realized I was real. And I was like, by the way, your website is a mess right now. You need to fix that.

Doug Vannatta (15:00.11)
Yeah.

Karin (15:20.122)
And so we had to both from both sides kind of overcome this wait, this skepticism basically. Like, are you for real? And is it worth like she had a good enough message that I clearly overcame it and just ended up working with her. But first of all, I wonder how many other people landed on her site and were put off because it was a a mess. but

Doug Vannatta (15:27.382)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (15:46.057)
Where how would you kind of walk someone through that kind of a like where it’s it’s not really they’re not answering the phone or whatever, there’s some technical issue and they they’ve had this sort of big hurdle inserted into their system? What would you how how would you walk them through that?

Doug Vannatta (16:03.029)
Yeah. So anytime you’re talking to somebody, I always tell tell people that a question will stir the conscience and and a a a an accusation or a statement is just going to harden someone’s will, right? So if you come at somebody and say, Your website is trash, you need to fix that, they’re probably gonna automatically start to defend themselves even if their website is trash, even if they know their website is trash.

Karin (16:20.27)
Yes.

Karin (16:27.815)
Yes. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (16:30.455)
They’re going to, they’re going to think this person is against me and I need to defend myself. Even if I’m in the wrong, I’m going to defend myself against this person. But if you come at that person and say, Hey, when was the last time you updated your website? Or when was the last time you looked into something like this? Ask a question that makes them start to think, I should probably pay attention to this. And she was nice enough to bring it up to me.

Karin (16:34.594)
Right. Right.

Karin (16:40.492)
And she might be selling me something. Yeah.

Karin (16:46.54)
I t checked it. Yeah.

Karin (16:54.744)
Yes.

Doug Vannatta (16:58.241)
So now I trust her to be able to help me to solve it.

Karin (17:00.886)
Right, right. But there is that initial part where you’re like, who is this? And so can you talk briefly about or not briefly, however long you want, but how what was the things and how do you coach people through the type of things that Simona was doing right in terms of building enough trust with me in her marketing, her website, messaging, whatever it was that allowed me to keep pushing.

And say, hey, there’s something here. I’m not gonna I’m not gonna believe this malware thing. I think I think sh that’s just a thing I need to overcome, versus like, no, this is a mess. The the and clearly this person is also a mess. There was some separation there that that happened.

Doug Vannatta (17:41.047)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (17:50.338)
Yeah, and sometimes that’s gonna happen, and that that takes a little bit more time to overcome. because everything like I said, everything either builds trust or erodes it. And I can’t just I can’t just call you and say, Karin, I’m Doug, I’m humble Doug, you need to trust me, and you’re just automatically gonna be filled with trust. That’s that doesn’t happen, right? Like that’s but what does happen is if I say, hey,

Karin (18:05.486)
Trust me. Yes.

Right. Yeah. Right.

Doug Vannatta (18:18.239)
Look, tell me about this and you start telling me about X, Y, or Z. And then I ask you a follow-up question. I listen for the answer, not a lot of time a lot of mistakes that people make, or a lot of times the people make the same mistake of asking a question and then automatically trying to come up with their response while the person’s answering. That means you’re not listening. So if you if you ask a question, actually listen for the answer.

Karin (18:38.742)
Yeah. Right.

Doug Vannatta (18:45.611)
maybe ask a a follow-up question like, hey, you said this in your response. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Kind of put on your your Dr. Phil hat and just can continue to dill drill down. And then the a another key way to to build trust is later on in the conversation bring up something they said previously. so I I tell people this like in D like I work a lot in criminal defense with criminal defense attorneys.

Karin (18:54.785)
Yes.

Karin (19:06.988)
Yes, yeah.

Doug Vannatta (19:14.315)
I tell people this, like in a DUI world, if I say, Hey, what’s what is your main concern with this DUI? some people are gonna say, I don’t wanna lose my job. Some people are gonna say, I don’t want to go to jail. Some people are gonna say, My wife is gonna kill me because now she’s got to drive me to work and back. Those are three completely different answers, right? And I’m gonna I’m gonna say, you know, that’s a valid response and we’ll we’ll try to help you with that, and then I’ll ask some more questions. Then later on in the pitch.

Karin (19:24.172)
Yeah. Yep.

Karin (19:32.909)
Yes.

Doug Vannatta (19:43.032)
Part of the conversation. Not right then, because you don’t want to, but later on, when I say, like, hey, this is the this is the history our law firm has in DUIs, this is the experience we’ve got. We will do everything we can to keep you on the road so your wife doesn’t have to drive you to work. Now the now whether it’s whether they’re they know it or not.

They’re thinking this guy listened to me because he just brought up something that I said ten minutes ago that I care about. Right. So you’re getting to to the person’s why and the and their understanding of of the situation and their perspective and trying as hard as you can to see things from their perspective. And sometimes their perspective is wrong. We’re not f fixing that right now. We’re just trying to see it from their perspective.

Karin (20:11.874)
That I care about. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (20:26.541)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Okay, so my next question as you were talking was gonna be like, how do the firm owners or the managing partners or whatever sort of structure their intake? But then while you were talking, I was thinking, you know, because to be honest, this is how any legitimate service provider should be kind of strategizing these types of calls. So when I’m having these kinds of calls,

Every call is going to be different because every firm is different. And I need to kind of what what I’m hearing you say is you need to illustrate that number one, you’re hearing what their goals and purpose and the reasons they’re calling are. And then you show and kind of display without sort of laying out the entire case, but kind of show that you understand that that you’ve done that before. So

I’m doing that. I’m sure you are doing that. Like this is just kind of how to have a conversation that that is more complex than just like, you know, yes, no questions and also kind of communicating this idea of like, I hear the reason you’re you’re calling and what you care about and your goals. Like in terms of like a marketing conversation, if I’m having this conversation, it’s that they care about X, Y, and Z, which is going to be different than the call that I have tomorrow and different than the call I had yesterday.

Karin (21:55.607)
So because all those calls are different, how do you structure your kind of intake and also hand it off to a person when it’s so kind of vague, I guess, or is it vague? Okay. Okay.

Doug Vannatta (22:12.757)
It is not. So the principles are the same, regardless of size of firm, practice matter. You know, the my understanding is is that sales intake is sales, right? I I know a lot of attorneys are allergic to the word sales, but it is. and sales, when properly understood, is the science of service. And those scientific principles are the same regardless of what service you’re providing. that said.

Karin (22:28.194)
Yeah.

Karin (22:39.319)
Okay.

Doug Vannatta (22:42.495)
Yes, the way we’re gonna set up a an intake process for a solo practice attorney is gonna be very different to somebody that’s got twenty attorneys, you know, five intake people, three receptionists, you know, like they’re they’re gonna have a a different flow and a different structure to it. but the principles of making the person feel heard, it those are gonna be underlying regardless of size of service size of size of firm or or what service they’re providing.

That said, let me let me go back to what you just did, by the way, because you missed a very valid point that I forgot to make. one one way to make people feel heard and and and to to feel like they’re going to trust you, and this goes back to active listening, is to reword and restate what the person just said, which is exactly what you do all the time as a podcast host. And you just did it to me. and I and I was just like, I forgot to mention that.

Karin (23:19.075)
Okay.

Karin (23:32.374)
Yeah. Yeah.

I do. Yeah.

Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (23:41.65)
but you you you are a a a great example of that, how somebody answers a question and instead of just saying, let’s go on to okay, the next question on my list is this, you know, you go you you reword and restate it and say, Did I hear that right? And you know, now I I feel like okay, Karin really understands what I just said, and now she sees it from my perspective.

Karin (23:49.004)
Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (24:02.956)
Yeah. I’m also listening. Yeah. And I do have like an outline where I’m sitting there thinking, okay, what are we gonna talk about next? But I am actively listening because I have been on plenty of podcasts where I see the host is just like blah blah blah, she’s saying blah blah blah. And I’m like, if I quizzed you on what I just said right now, you couldn’t answer. And like I get super irritated. And I’m like, come on, listen to what I’m saying. Like, if you want your people.

Doug Vannatta (24:21.196)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (24:24.843)
Yeah.

It’s it’s more fun when they don’t even look at the screen. They’re just like, g great answer. So tell me about a time like Tell me about your journey.

Karin (24:32.94)
Exactly. Totally. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell me about your journey. That is the other instant, no.

Yeah, I actually just changed I use a platform called Podmatch that you know connects podcast hosts to guests. And I actually just changed my profile on there to be a little bit more because I’m a very direct person, but I’m even more direct, where was like, instant no’s will be the following. One of which is mindset work. Number two, my talking about my journey. Don’t ask me to talk about my journey. I this is not my thing. And listen, no.

Doug Vannatta (24:49.911)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Vannatta (25:03.146)
Ha ha ha.

Karin (25:14.208)
Listening to certain people talk about their journey. There are certain people I could listen to all day long. there’s a handful of political people that I won’t bring up right now because that’s not this show. that is not me, and that is not this show. So being really clear about that is important. And the point I wanted to make though is that I also think that it’s important for me.

Doug Vannatta (25:17.463)
Yeah.

Karin (25:38.195)
so like strategically, I feel like this is getting a little meta because in the show, I’m also doing what I do in client calls where I’m saying, I heard what you said about this. I want to underline it, but I’m also demonstrating that I understand it. And I’m gonna add a few things in my understanding and my world to that. So I’m gonna show you my expertise while I’m also sort of

maneuvering this conversation in a way that makes you feel good about what you’re saying, makes me kind of demonstrate. So in that conversation, you’re doing, you need, you know, as the lawyer or the person in that intake call, this is the goal to make them comfortable, to make them trust you, but also if you are the one taking those, those intake calls to demonstrate a bit of expertise. How do you do that if you’re not taking the call though?

Doug Vannatta (26:34.714)
W so if if I’m not taking the call, like if the

Karin (26:36.662)
Yeah, like if you have a receptionist or, you know, somebody answering the phone.

Doug Vannatta (26:39.477)
Right. Good question. So receptionists, intake people, case managers, there are lots of different people. A lot of times firms will hire what I call the one L’s, the people in law school that just want to work at a law firm while they’re going to law school. those these people answer the phone at firms all across the country. and they cannot give legal advice because they’re not attorneys. They’re that’s that’s pretty clear.

Karin (27:07.808)
Yeah, there’s a lot.

Doug Vannatta (27:09.837)
Yeah. Like it yeah, it’s a felony in most states. so but you can still you can still indicate to somebody that you know what you’re talking about and that you’re you’re creating that that safety net for them. So like if I say let’s go back to the DUI conversation. So if I say, you know, somebody got a DUI and I say, Well well walk me through the stop. Was it first of all, was it a stop or was there an accident? Did you get, you know?

Karin (27:13.761)
Yeah.

Karin (27:37.591)
Okay.

Doug Vannatta (27:39.142)
well, now they know, okay, well, there’s really mostly two ways that police come in contact with D people accused of DUIs, either traffic stop or an accident. and they say, well, it’s it’s a stop. Okay, well, tell me, did they do the three different field sobriety tests? You know, by the way, I’m asking the question, I’m indicating that I understand what I need to understand. Yes, I’m not trying to build a defense for them.

Karin (28:02.84)
How these cases work. Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Doug Vannatta (28:08.341)
I’m just trying to understand what happened and and and then get to their why as far as why this matters to them. so you yeah. No, I was just gonna say so you can just by the way you phrase things and ask questions, you can indicate to somebody that you are knowledgeable of the topic without giving advice or or stepping over that line. so yeah.

Karin (28:16.022)
Okay. Okay, so sorry, go ahead.

Karin (28:33.226)
Yeah. Well, and that was my next question is like how do you put a box around like first of all, do you have a recommended amount of time for each intake call? Like it really shouldn’t take more than what, fifteen minutes? Or what what’s your recommendation?

Doug Vannatta (28:48.681)
I’d say on average, on average, fifteen to thirty minutes. And the only reason I say that it’s an average is that there are different personality types, and I we don’t necessarily get in need to get into the the whole in-depth of the disc profile system. but there are different personality types where a fifteen minute phone call is probably gonna be too long for that person. And then there’s there’s some people, some prospective clients that a 30 minute phone call probably is not gonna be enough.

Karin (29:04.824)
Right.

Karin (29:11.726)
Sure.

Karin (29:16.864)
Not enough. Yeah. All of my clients are lawyers and thirty minutes is never enough. So like they want to tell me everything. Yes. They have all the words. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Doug Vannatta (29:18.465)
But on average

Doug Vannatta (29:23.949)
Exactly. Exactly. Because they they are very analytical people and they wanna they wanna overanalyze every little detail. Right. Right. There are some attorneys though that are very I mean, I I’ve got one that I w worked with for a while now that his consultations are like five minutes because he’s just it’s so fast.

Karin (29:44.914)
I am so jealous. I don’t know if I’ve ever for his consultations. Yes, I could see that. But when he talks to you, is it short?

Doug Vannatta (29:50.957)
For his consultations.

a lot of times, yes. because he’s he’s a he’s just what they call a high D in the disc profile system where he’s he’s very driven and and just very blunt and to the point. and so how he talks to a client is going to be different and I and try to convince him to be a little softer to some clients. because some clients may not jive with that.

Karin (29:57.565)
that’s amazing.

Karin (30:02.017)
Okay.

Decisive. Yep.

Karin (30:18.534)
Yeah. They need yeah, they need their hand held a little bit. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (30:22.561)
But that brings me back to what you were asking about people that aren’t attorneys answering the phone. If you have, if you have a receptionist that understands the attorney and the client, they can make the connection a whole lot easier. And what you’re doing is reducing friction for the the prospective client. So for instance, client calls in with a DUI. Receptionist answers the phone. They do a basic, you know, nuts and bolts, what you’re

Karin (30:27.2)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (30:36.226)
Yes. Yes.

Karin (30:41.686)
Yes, yeah.

Doug Vannatta (30:50.867)
Name, phone number, email address. Get a little bit of the story and start to build rapport with that person. They know that this person is probably going to need to talk to attorney X that has the very short and blunt personality profile. But the person they’re talking to is a very influential, soft person that that feels everything. Everything is about how they feel. So that receptionist can then go.

Karin (31:10.702)
Soft Yes. Yes. Yep.

Doug Vannatta (31:19.979)
Listen, I’m gonna put you in touch with attorney X. Attorney X is a great attorney. I would I would trust this guy with my life. But he’s he’s a little more to the point than I am. He’s the kind of guy that you want in your corner. And so what that what that receptionist is doing is he is she’s setting up the attorney for success. And and now that that person calling in feels heard because they know that this person understands that I’m

Karin (31:38.594)
Yes. Yep.

Doug Vannatta (31:48.586)
I’m more of a softer person. I’m I’m more of a feely person. And they met that need by warning me of the guy I’m about to talk to. But this guy probably is who I need. So then they’re you know they’re gonna end up hiring most of the time, ideally. But it’s all because the the receptionist understood the different personalities and set the other set the next person up for success. That all comes from a framework of conversation, not a script, by the way.

Karin (31:50.381)
Yes.

Karin (32:02.978)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (32:09.603)
Yeah.

Karin (32:17.388)
Yeah. So where okay, so as you’re describing this, I’m thinking about at the end of my MBA, we did this thing called the Gallup Strengths Finder. I think it’s got a different name now. some other company bought it, but it used to be Gallup, like the giant polling organization. They and there were consulting firms that would use this to in order to hire. And they would also do a combination of that and the Myers Briggs. So we did this at the end of my MBA. We had this whole like

Doug Vannatta (32:18.166)
Doug Vannatta (32:33.505)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (32:46.508)
residential thing where we were in these cabins in the woods and we all kind of got together. So and I the a couple of things I learned from it. Number one, I wish we had done this at the beginning because most of our program is group work. And it’s like it would have been really helpful to know these things. Like I j kind of inherently knew some things about myself. So for me, my Myers Briggs is an ENTJ, which there are very few women that are this. And it’s

Doug Vannatta (32:59.554)
Yeah.

Karin (33:12.524)
Like when you chart all the ENTJs, it’s in this corner and it’s very much what you described. I’m super decisive. I’m very, very analytical. And I am very like, I do not make emotional decisions. In fact, they drive me nuts. Like people, when I had when I was working corporate and I had to fire people and they would cry, I was like, come on. Like, move on. I was you’re bugging me. Yeah, you know, like get your stuff and get out. Like you’re bugging. Like

Doug Vannatta (33:20.471)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Vannatta (33:27.349)
Right. Right.

Doug Vannatta (33:34.677)
Yeah. I didn’t kill your dog. Just go just just get out of my office now. There’s other jobs.

Karin (33:42.752)
Exactly. Yes. Okay, you’re I you’re hearing me.

Okay, so that’s me. But here’s where the Strengths Finder thing comes in. and this is you know, similar idea and philosophy and approach to what you’re describing, I think just different frameworks. But the strengths finder takes all of your strengths and it says don’t try to waste time on your weaknesses. What you need to do is, like in these consulting firms or wherever your workplace is, build your team around.

the people who have those other skills. So for me, my client relation person is like if I were in a chart her, she’s filling all those other skills. And that’s what you’re describing in that intake person. So you’ve got this attorney who’s super analytical, very decisive, potentially rubs people the wrong way, like I do, and but super good at their job. And you want them like supporting you in your whatever your legal issue is.

Doug Vannatta (34:21.196)
Mm-hmm.

Doug Vannatta (34:42.953)
yeah.

Doug Vannatta (34:48.043)
Yeah. Could you imagine if the whole firm was him though?

Karin (34:48.46)
But that intake, right? No, everybody would hate them. Yeah. They and they and they wouldn’t understand it because this would be the kind of firm where they’re like, We all went to Harvard and on paper we all look like we should be killing it. But they don’t understand that soft connection and that human piece of it that you can’t really put down on paper.

Doug Vannatta (34:53.453)
They would they would have zero clients.

Karin (35:14.806)
And so when I ask you like where does this, how do you kind of organize this around your intake and how do you put this into a system? I think what you’re saying is you kind of can’t. You just need to kind of bring someone with those skills.

Doug Vannatta (35:26.911)
Right. It and it and it’s the way I do it for for different firms is based on that firm and who they’ve got currently working, what they’re what what’s currently working and what’s not, and what their goals are. like it it it it kinda has to be custom.

Karin (35:35.212)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So you just have to kind of find the right person to put in Yeah. Yeah. But also sort of personality based. Like we if this person has this super strong s whatever it is in their personality, we need to balance that out over here with this other thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I I feel like that was really valuable. And people are gonna be frustrated with that answer though, I think, where it’s like

Doug Vannatta (35:49.121)
Right.

Doug Vannatta (35:58.817)
Right, exactly.

Karin (36:08.822)
I don’t have like this magic ticket answer where you just need to ask this one certain question in your intake and then that solves all your problems.

Doug Vannatta (36:18.581)
Yeah, no, that’s that’s not the way it works. And and

Karin (36:20.992)
Yeah, yeah, it’s way more complicated and sort of nuanced.

Doug Vannatta (36:25.131)
And you don’t want that to work because for like you said a long time ago, you said and I don’t it might have even been before we started recording. that the if your pod or if your website looks the same as the other twelve attorneys doing the same thing in your mark geographic area, you’ve you’re not standing out at all. That you’re your your enemy is not your competitors in your market. Your enemy is obscurity. You need to stand out. You need to to

Karin (36:50.86)
Yes.

Doug Vannatta (36:53.537)
To hold their attention for some reason. And if there was one question you could ask in the intake, or if there was one phrase you could use that was a magic phrase that made everybody hire, then everybody would use it and no one would stand out. And unfortunately a lot of firms fall into the trap of saying, Well, I’ve I I was a prosecutor for 20 years and I was, you know.

Karin (36:54.893)
Yes.

Karin (37:07.774)
Everybody would be doing it. Yep. Yeah.

Karin (37:15.148)
Yes. I’ve tried that. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (37:21.259)
I I’ve been doing this for twenty five years and you know well, okay, what attorney has it? If you’re saying the same thing as everybody else in your market, then the only thing left between you, the only deciding factor the prospective client has left is price. So unless you want to be the cheapest attorney in your market, don’t stop saying at what everybody else is saying. Please, I beg of you.

Karin (37:43.725)
Yes. Yeah. When you ask these questions of yourself or in your, you know, dark, silent moments at night where you’re looking at other firms and you’re saying, Why are they making so much money? It’s not because of their SEO approach. It’s not because of some like golden ticket single question on their intake form. The number of times I’ve had firms come to me and say, Hey,

These guys are killing it. Let’s just make a website just like theirs or let’s put toget it’s like, no.

Doug Vannatta (38:15.097)
No, that’s the wrong thing to do.

Karin (38:18.104)
It’s so the wrong thing. And we could do a whole other show about that. But just no. Like let’s start with that being the wrong thing. And then if you need to kind of re-engineer why that’s wrong, that sounds like some work you need to do like on your own, but that’s just the wrong start. yeah, and so like I said, that’s gonna be frustrating for some people because there isn’t this magic ticket answer, and I’m not just handing that to them. It’s it’s a lot more complicated. Like everything to do with marketing, people are

Doug Vannatta (38:33.369)
Yeah.

Karin (38:47.872)
want it to be, I need the following six things and probably with the work you do. And let me give you the checklist and then we’re done and we’re good and we’re making millions. And it’s like you they don’t want to pay attention to the amount of psychology and human decision process stuff that happens in all of this. People don’t want that to be part of it because that makes it kind of messy.

Doug Vannatta (39:08.077)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (39:13.523)
It does. And it makes it a little more challenging, but that’s honestly what makes it fun to me. because it’s right, right.

Karin (39:16.248)
Yeah.

It’s also what makes it successful. Like when you when you understand that and you do it right, and you’re asking yourself these questions about why those firms are killing it, that’s why. That’s that’s not the answer you want, but that’s why. Okay, so I feel like this goes right into the book that you have to recommend. So it is time for the book review section. And in case you

Doug Vannatta (39:32.021)
Exactly.

Karin (39:41.768)
This is your first episode. We have a whole section of the website called the Thought Leader’s Library where you can see all the books that all the guests have recommended. So, Doug, what is the book that you’re gonna recommend?

Doug Vannatta (39:52.193)
Book I have recommended.

Is this dramatic enough? Is this dramatic? Is this dramatic enough for you? It’s called Yes. Yeah. But if you heard there’s there’s there’s a there’s a video on YouTube of like a middle school band playing that and it’s completely awful. It’s it’s so fun. that would be more

Karin (39:57.783)
He’s like

two thousand two dun dun dun

Karin (40:13.23)
Yes. Okay, so for people listening, just so you know, all of a sudden the book slowly appeared from the bottom of the screen. Yeah. It’s a podcast.

Doug Vannatta (40:22.529)
So anyway, the the book sorry, I forgot that people would only that only listen to it’s yes, it’s not all right. So I don’t know what I’m doing here. but but anyway, this book it’s called We’re having fun. it’s called Crucial Conversations Tips for Talking, or Tools for Talking when the Stakes Are High. It’s all about it’s not legal specific. it’s really it it really is more it’s

Karin (40:35.65)
Good time.

Karin (40:47.064)
That’s good.

Doug Vannatta (40:50.999)
kind of psychologically heavy. it it teaches you how people make decisions when their emotions are running rampant and how to cool those down and create what they call a a pool of safety and in and make make sure people feel safe in the conversation because when people make when people feel safe they make better decisions they say better things you build trust a lot easier and you can actually move that conversation forward.

Karin (41:05.046)
Nice.

Karin (41:09.399)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (41:21.141)
If people don’t feel safe. Exactly.

Karin (41:21.144)
That’s perfect. I feel like that’s exactly what we’re talking about in these intake. It’s not about, okay, give me the magic question. It’s about how do you make feel tr of trust and and feel good about moving forward with you, basically.

Doug Vannatta (41:34.412)
Right. Right. And that’s that’s what the book teaches. and it yeah, I love I love this book. I’ve read it this is this is probably my twentieth copy ’cause I I’ll read it and like I read it first, I’ve read it a few times, but ever every now and then somebody will tell me to suggest a book that they need to read, ’cause I’m a very avid reader. That’s actually how I came across your your podcast. yes.

Karin (41:46.144)
Nice.

Karin (41:58.285)
Really? that’s cool.

Doug Vannatta (42:01.285)
a long time ago I was I was searching on LinkedIn for book recommendations and like a a clip of a book rep recommendation from your podcast came up. and I was like, okay, I love this podcast. but anyway, I give this book out to so many people. And so I just I keep having to rebuy it.

Karin (42:12.872)
Yes. Well, to do a deep dive that you’ve had 20 cup. Yeah. Let me just say that’s amazing. I am also an avid reader and I do want to do like a slight just a quick plug because originally when I was finishing my MBA, two of my friends and I started a book review podcast. Cause I I read a hundred books a year. I’m constantly reading. And so this was one way for us to like keep in touch as after we graduated.

And this was we graduated in nine. So this was way before podcasts were a thing. And we had this podcast, and it was all about reviewing business books just for fun. And so, like I I love that. And that’s why I have this segment in the show because it’s just this little nod to this part of my life that I loved. We enjoyed doing that. And and I do think it makes this like the end part of the show a little bit more interesting where people are like, okay, I’m just gonna stay and hear what book they’re talking about. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (43:09.421)
Make sure it’s not green eggs and ham.

Karin (43:10.978)
But I would have been fine with that if you could tie it in. I do not care. Exactly. but this sounds perfect. Like honestly, I was as you were describing it, I’m like, you could almost let’s say you’re starting a firm and you’re really trying to hone in on your intake process, how to make it better.

Doug Vannatta (43:17.613)
Persistence pays off. That’s

Karin (43:33.746)
And you knew you weren’t gonna be the one answering the phone. This sounds like something where either you read it or you give and you give like the Cliff’s notes to whoever it is answering the phone, or you give them the book. Or both. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (43:45.58)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It’s not it’s not such a a heavy read that I mean anybody can if if I can understand it, then really anybody can understand it. but but it it’s it’s not like deep dive into psychol psychology. It’s not like that. It just understands psychology and explains why people say things the way they do. You know, it kind of there’s

Karin (43:54.988)
Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (44:13.823)
a whole big section about the difference between fight and f fight or flight and why you know where that comes from and why how that shows up in conversations till today. and there’s there’s a lot of there’s a lot of psychology in it, but it makes it interesting because it’s very usable. you can you can read this book and take tools from this the act of listening, the building safety. You could s you could start today using using things that you

Karin (44:36.109)
Right away.

Doug Vannatta (44:42.881)
What I hate is to read a book that like well that’s interesting, but I can’t use anything. Like that’s yeah.

Karin (44:48.512)
Right, exactly. Well, that was pretty. It was like a poem and it’s pretty, but like it doesn’t have any real application in my life. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (44:54.601)
Right, exactly. That’s why I d I typically don’t read fiction books for that reason. I just it’s just like, okay, well that was a waste of a couple hours. I c I could have learned something.

Karin (44:59.147)
Yeah.

Karin (45:06.4)
very different opinion about fiction books, but that is a whole other show. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (45:09.965)
So does my wife. So does my wife. My wife we’ve th we’ve got probably five or six hundred books in our house and I’d say probably four hundred and fifty of them are my wife’s and they’re mostly fiction.

Karin (45:21.72)
Good for her. Good for her. She’s a good woman. here’s the thing though that I think is is kind of underlying but not being said is this intake call, it’s it’s tricky, you know, because we started talking about how like you think it’s anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes, but probably the average is closer to 15, would you say? And a lot of stuff happs has to happen in that 15 minutes where

Doug Vannatta (45:42.295)
Probably.

Mm-hmm.

Karin (45:46.883)
We’re talking about all the stuff in this book. We’re talking about how to build trust. We’re talking about the things to say and not say. Then you’ve got to get some information from them about like their phone number and their what you know, all of that stuff. So, first of all, you’ve got to really have the right person in that place, whoever is answering the phone or taking that intake. And then they need to understand how complex this is. And it’s not just get the name and phone number. Because I will say, and this is another

Doug Vannatta (46:02.22)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (46:15.156)
angle we could have talked a lot about, but we do a lot of local service ads. And the thing that I love about local service ads is they’re all recorded. And so I have sit sat and listened to the what’s happening in those calls and I can you can hear both sides of it. And the number of times I’ve been impressed is very few. Usually

Doug Vannatta (46:36.715)
Well, you you’ve probably been impressed, but impressed in the wrong direction.

Karin (46:40.554)
Exactly. Exactly. So the last thing I want to ask before we get to sort of the takeaways is whether you believe in this idea of cold calling your own firm. And if so, like what do you do with that?

Doug Vannatta (46:56.887)
So I don’t typically call it well, first of all, it’s very difficult for me to cold call the people I work with because everybody’s got my numbers say like of I it I don’t have that many numbers. And yes, you’re right. I do have a very specific I can’t yeah, it’s very difficult to disguise. Yeah. I am a huge proponent of recorded calls and listening to them and and and

Karin (47:06.1)
And you have a s very specific voice. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. They’d be like, Hey Doug, what are you calling for?

Doug Vannatta (47:24.789)
And what I’ll do is I’ll listen to them with people and say, and and and again, an an accusation hardens the will, a question stirs the conscience. So when I when I when I listen to it with them, I say, Well, if you were this client, how how would that phrase that you just used make you feel? You know, like instead of saying, You shouldn’t have said that, you know, right. Like like what do you think what do you think the prospective client was thinking during this part of the conversation?

Karin (47:27.427)
Okay.

Karin (47:34.486)
Yeah.

Karin (47:42.198)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, that was really bad. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (47:52.992)
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (47:54.994)
Or is do you think it was smart to to quote Yeah. Yeah, do you think it was smart to quote them thirty seconds into the phone call? Like, yeah, this is five thousand dollars. Get y if you’ve got that, we can keep talking. Like, okay, that’s you know, the price check on IL three needs to go, right? That is that is nowhere does not need to be in the legal services.

Karin (48:00.373)
And if so, what’s wrong with you?

Karin (48:11.63)
No. Right. Yeah. Do you even have that in your bank account? Yeah. we laugh, but we all know this is true. And this is the kind of stuff that’s happening. Yeah. Yeah. That and then like putting them on hold for five minutes. and it’s like, what are you doing? What come on?

Doug Vannatta (48:25.323)
Yeah. It happens so often.

Karin (48:37.58)
Yeah, so I don’t know. We we could go on and on all day about all the things that are happening that aren’t great. But at the end of the day, the goal here is to just take a look at your intake and realize how much of a pot of gold it is. And you’re not probably treating that that way. Like you probably have a lot of room for improvement to be very nice. Like it’s it probably that’s probably where you could put time and money and

have the biggest return. Yeah. okay, so Doug, what is your big takeaway? If people have listened to the episode, they’ve written down all the things, and now they’re done and they want to sit down and think, okay, today I’m going to start by doing this to because I heard this episode, what would you, what, where would you say they should start?

Doug Vannatta (49:30.295)
Well, you should start by getting a catchy nickname they can use on LinkedIn.

Karin (49:33.688)
Humble Doug. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I mean truly to go back to the whole like marketing thing, you laugh, but it’s true. Like make sure that you do have some memorable piece of branding.

Doug Vannatta (49:47.286)
Yeah. but no seriously, just th think about think about things from think about your whole intake process from marketing and I I’ll lump the two together for this piece. From from the time somebody raises their hand saying I need help and they’re looking on Google or they’re asking Chat GPT who they recommend, from that time to the time that they are your client, that is all part of the intake process, and it it’s worth the

the few minutes it takes to think about it from your client’s perspective and think where would the friction be? If I was wanting to hire my firm, where would I get hung up? Where would I fall off the bridge? Where would I where would I slip out of the the the funnel? Like whatever, whatever metaphor you want to use. Right. Yes. Yes. There’s so many metaphors, but you get the point by this, by this time, I think.

Karin (50:25.602)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Karin (50:33.218)
Yeah. Right. Where’s the hole in the bucket? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (50:42.846)
Great. But also, like there is a a good amount of the people listening who are that intake person. Like they are answering their own phone. So also I would kind of ask you to not take that defensive stance that you’re describing because you’re asking them if they are answering their phone. You’re asking them to criticize themselves. And that’s tough for some people. So so like be honest and know, like, okay, this is this is the part where

Doug Vannatta (50:50.828)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (51:12.614)
it’s not doing well. And I could definitely, if I can’t figure it out, maybe I need somebody to help me figure this out. And like the value in in all of that for sure is gonna pay off. Like that just seems so obvious to me. Yeah. So kind of recognize your strengths and weaknesses and that whole Gallup thing I was talking about earlier, too. And and try to take a step back and like and be honest with yourself. Yeah. Awesome.

Doug Vannatta (51:26.517)
Right. Right. Yep.

Doug Vannatta (51:39.925)
Yes. Yep.

Karin (51:42.424)
Doug Vanetta, thank you so much for being here. your your firm is HD shoot, I don’t have it in front of me. You tell me.

Doug Vannatta (51:50.522)
HD intake H D intake Solutions is the name of the firm. The the website is HD intake dot com. there is a free intake audit you can download. that that you can do a self audit. It doesn’t it doesn’t require a phone call with me. you know, ’cause I’m a salesperson and nobody likes to talk to salespeople. it’s I’m so unapproachable. I am humble though.

Karin (51:58.841)
Thank you.

Karin (52:02.888)
that’s awesome.

Karin (52:09.346)
Okay.

Yeah.

Right. But you’re humble.

Doug Vannatta (52:20.749)
But yeah, you can download the the free intake audit. It takes about ten minutes, ten to fifteen minutes to go through line by line and and it kind of helps you assess where where people might be falling out of my bucket. and and it’s a good starting point.

Karin (52:33.528)
Perfect.

Yeah, I think that’s the part is like, you know, be honest, but then if you are having a hard time with it, do the audit so that it’s kind of pointing it out to you in case you like you’re having a hard time. Cause what do you think the likelihood do you think the percentage of firms who where this is the hurdle between what they’re making and what they want to be making?

Doug Vannatta (52:45.355)
Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (53:00.771)
gosh. That’s that’s an interesting question. Because if you ask them, they they’re they don’t have a problem with intake. They they just don’t realize they have a problem with it. I asked somebody the other day what their conversion rate was, which I think is a pretty valid question and I could I could answer pretty simply for every firm I work with. but he he said he said, it’s a hundred percent. I was like, Really? Like

Karin (53:11.406)
Doug Vannatta (53:30.269)
A hundred percent. Like it that’s impossible. Like unless you don’t understand what a conversion rate is, that’s impossible. and so but I I I think a lot of that was one guy, but I think there’s a lot of firms that just don’t they either believe that or they think we’re fine. All we all we need is the phone to ring more. And it’s like, well, if you’ve got if you’re converting at a fifteen percent rate, you

Karin (53:33.001)
Yeah right.

Karin (53:44.492)
Yeah, that believed that.

Karin (53:49.206)
Yeah.

Karin (53:52.748)
Right. No.

Yep. And you pr bring it up to twenty five. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Vannatta (53:58.889)
Adding the more phone calls, yeah, that’s that’s gonna yeah, that’s not gonna do anything to add more phone calls. Why don’t you squeeze a little more out of the lemon you’ve got? and y you know, like that’s but yeah, I I I it I hesitate to put a number on it because my number is probably gonna make most law firms depressed. It’s a big number. Big number. Huge.

Karin (54:07.744)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Karin (54:18.59)
Yeah. But it’s a big number, whatever the number is. It’s a big number. And and if you’re not evaluating, auditing, and taking a look at it, then it’s it’s a pretty for sure thing that there’s a problem there. And it’s maybe not even a problem, but it’s there’s work that can be done.

Doug Vannatta (54:37.643)
And it’s something that’s that is easily fixable.

Karin (54:40.64)
Yeah. Seriously, this does feel like low hanging fruit. Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. This was a great episode.

Doug Vannatta (54:43.989)
It is. Definitely.

Yeah, thank you for having me. It’s been so much fun.