How Do You Build a Referral Engine? with Delisi Friday

Karin (00:04.798)
Welcome back to Councilcast. If referrals are your long I’m gonna start over because I got whatever.

Welcome back to Councilcast. If referrals are your law firm’s biggest source of business, here’s a question for you. Do you actually have a system, or are you just crossing your fingers and hoping that referrals keep showing up? Most firms that I talk to say referrals drive their best cases. This is always the thing that comes up in these initial conversations: like, we don’t really need to do marketing. We’ve just kind of built our firm on referrals, but they have no system around this.

And they have no repeatable process for generating referrals. So instead, they just rely on kind of doing good work, crossing their fingers, and trying to stay top of mind, and hoping that someone sends business their way. So today’s guest is Delisi Friday, and she believes that referrals shouldn’t just be random. They should be engineered. And in this episode, we’re gonna break it all down. And I know everybody, I know I’ve had this conversation so many times. I know everybody’s thinking,

Okay, how, how, how, how do I do that? But before we do that, just take a breath. We’re gonna talk about how it works, the psychology, sort of some core ideas around referrals, and then we’ll get into the how. So that’ll that’ll be coming. And how you can also like strengthen your relationship and turn this word of mouth idea into an actual growth strategy. So, Deleacey, thank you so much for being here. I love talking about referrals. I know this sounds a little bit nerdy and weird, but.

I feel like this is something that gets kind of pushed to the side, like, yeah, you’ve got your referrals and whatever, but it’s such a core part of most firms’ leads. And they’re really missing out. So before we jump in, thank you for being here.

Delisi Friday (01:59.584)
Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Karin. I love talking about referrals too, so I feel like we’re gonna have a blast.

Karin (02:06.301)
All right, so the hesitations and the things that I’m thinking that people are already thinking in their minds. Like, number one, before we even sat down, I was like, number one, I hate networking. I hate it. I hate the events. I hate the conferences. And I think a lot of people are thinking, you’re gonna tell me to go to B and I and go like be, you know, these things that they’ve already sort of got embedded in their head about what they think our answer is gonna be before we’ve even started talking.

Delisi Friday (02:19.341)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (02:35.671)
Yes.

Karin (02:35.719)
So let’s kind of push back on that idea. Let’s let’s talk before we get into that how let’s talk about how referrals work and how it’s not just luck.

Delisi Friday (02:47.821)
Absolutely. So what you just described is the number one misconception I get anytime I meet a lawyer and we’re talking about referrals because I know a ton of amazing trial lawyers who are actually introverts. If I told them to go network, they would say I’d rather jump off a cliff. And so that’s that’s a part of it if you want it to be a part of it.

Karin (03:02.44)
Yes.

Karin (03:06.759)
Yeah, one hundred percent.

Delisi Friday (03:13.601)
But realistically, it really depends on who you’re trying to target for referrals. And that’s the first place you start because there are four audiences you can target for referrals. Your former clients, your current clients, your current referral partners, and future referral partners. So if you came to me and said, Delisey, I want more referrals, I’m gonna ask you to tell me which audience you want them from.

Karin (03:32.774)
Nice.

Delisi Friday (03:39.851)
Because you have to decide who you’re targeting for referrals first before it can even begin to tell you what you should be doing to bring in more referrals from that audience. So networking, yes, people think of it. No, it’s okay.

Karin (03:50.984)
Right. And of those four, sorry to jump over you, but and of those four audiences, depending on your practice area, who those people are, there’s gonna be a different level of potential success for each of those buckets as well. and so none of those four areas were B I were like go out and do the painful, awful thing that most of us

Delisi Friday (04:06.967)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (04:19.315)
hate doing. And actually, I’m a measured extrovert. When we when I finished grad school, we did like the strengths finder. At the time it was Gallup’s strengths finder. I think it’s called something else now. But I was like a hundred percent on the extrovert scale. Like, you know, it’s a scale. I was nowhere in the middle. I was a hundred percent over to the side of extrovert and I still hate, hate, hate networking and conferences and doing all that stuff.

Because to me, it’s not about the kind of being in public and talking to people. It’s that it seems super fake and it seems super salesy and sort of used car salesy. And I that’s not the way I like to present myself. And it’s not the way I find good clients, to be honest. I’ve done it, I’ve done all that stuff, and the best clients come to me through a different process that I’ve figured out. It’s taken me years and years to figure out where they are.

Delisi Friday (04:56.002)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (05:08.14)
Yeah.

Karin (05:17.011)
But let’s okay, let’s dig into kind of how to figure out first of all, how to define those four kind of categories and then how to figure out where to start.

Delisi Friday (05:23.725)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (05:28.119)
Sure. So when you’re trying to define the four, it’s exactly what it sounds like. So think of your former clients as a referral source and it’s anyone from a month ago all the way to two years ago. That’s kind of like the sweet spot I like to think of because anything outside of two years, unless you’ve done something to keep in touch, if you started keeping in touch with someone whose case you closed three years ago, they’re gonna say, wait a second.

Karin (05:56.8)
Who’s this? Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (05:56.942)
I haven’t heard from Karin in forever. Why am I getting this random message? So, so two years is kind of a good safe spot if you haven’t done anything to nurture those relationships to drive referrals. Current clients. Most people are surprised when I say that, but the reason why current clients is an audience to target for referrals is because when they’re working with you, the experience they have when they work with you is what will drive referrals.

Karin (06:26.781)
Yeah. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (06:27.489)
So it I think what’s interesting about the legal industry is like doctors, if you perform a surgery, did the surgery go well? Are you fixed? But lawyers, when you help a client, it’s a little bit more of a challenge for a client to really know, did I get a good result? Because it’s not so cut and dry, which is also what’s really interesting about the legal industry in my mind too. So the way that you are treating a client.

the way they feel about the experience of working with your law firm is so important to generate referrals. Cause if they have a great experience, that is going to translate into referrals because they have a very positive feeling about you and your office, which is what you want.

Karin (07:03.732)
Yeah.

Karin (07:13.789)
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I’ve seen it so said so many times that referrals are not about just doing good work. This is especially for law firms, this is about your relationship and the way they’re treating you the way you’re treating them and the way they feel about the way you treated them. So maybe you got the result that they wanted, but if you were impossible to get in touch with and they had to chase the work.

Delisi Friday (07:27.777)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (07:40.908)
And whenever they emailed you, it took three days to get back and you were a mess and things, you know, your file was all over the place. That doesn’t really matter that you got the result that they wanted. They’re not gonna send somebody your your way. And I will say I work with a lot of attorneys. And everyone I know knows that I work with a lot of attorneys. So when my network needs an attorney, they come to me because they know I know a lot of attorneys.

Delisi Friday (07:55.893)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (08:07.212)
Yes?

Karin (08:08.869)
And I will look back and it’s not like, hey, who had the greatest bio page and who went to the greatest law firm? It’s who was good to work with and who would I want to give my friends to where when I sent them an email, it was reasonable, they were, you know, it was a good relationship. I mean, all of those things that we all know about being human. So can you talk a little bit about like the difference between

Delisi Friday (08:13.922)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (08:19.148)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (08:29.133)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (08:35.869)
That idea of doing good work and then how you build that relationship that then kind of inherently leads to these referrals.

Delisi Friday (08:44.747)
Yes. And I’m actually gonna tie back a previous episode that you did because I was listening to one of your podcast episodes in the past and it was last year. And you had a woman on, you guys talked about like the human side of marketing and making sure you sound and act like a human, which sounds obvious, but not everyone does it.

Karin (08:58.504)
Yes.

Yeah.

It does. I it does because I think, and I feel like this is a little bit of a tangent that we can get to, but because people get so caught up in SEO and ads and all of that. And I know you talk a lot about that, but let’s first talk about like that idea of being human and building that relationship. Like I know you have a different book, but you were gonna talk about this book, Unreasonable Hospitality. And I I think when people hear that word hospitality, they think of just hotels right away.

Delisi Friday (09:14.861)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (09:28.447)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (09:33.356)
Right.

Karin (09:33.651)
But when it comes to your business, how can you take that idea and bring it into your firm? And what where why were you originally going to talk about that book?

Delisi Friday (09:45.646)
So the reason why I love to talk about unreasonable hospitality is because it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, the experience someone has when they’re working with you is what is going to determine how they feel at the end of that working relationship. The other part is if you and I meet and I have a great experience with you and you

Stand out to me because you make me feel like a person and not just another number. Not if, but when a mistake happens. Maybe you don’t return a call right away. Maybe you don’t return an email right away. Maybe a mistake happens and it’s not the end of the world, but I’m going to be a lot more gracious because you and I have connected on a different level. And I feel like we have a more personal relationship. And I’m going to provide that grace because of it.

Karin (10:41.555)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (10:41.781)
And I think that’s a part that a lot of people don’t talk about enough because when your relationship reaches that point where I’m gonna give you a little more grace because we feel like we’re really connected, now you are preventing problems from happening in the future. You’re preventing those upset clients who are like, I can’t believe Karin didn’t call me back within 24 hours. And you’re like, Well, shoot, it’s because I forgot to put my away message on. And

Karin (10:53.246)
Yeah.

Karin (10:57.886)
Yeah.

Karin (11:04.057)
Right. Yeah.

Karin (11:08.658)
Right.

Delisi Friday (11:09.003)
Then that person’s gonna be like, that’s right, she’s a person, you know?

Karin (11:12.413)
Right. Well, and also I think there’s a lot to be said for the way you handle those mistakes. and two things that I was thinking of when you were just talking about mistakes and the way you handle mistakes and also the way you close out a client. So, you know, if you have had your firm long enough or your business, and clients come and go, and this is just the way of the world, right? And combined with that, mistakes happen. And so

Delisi Friday (11:27.319)
Mm.

Karin (11:41.318)
Have a plan and a thought about what kind of a person you’re gonna be in both of those situations. Because I will say I I think I’m in year 17 of this agency. Clients come and go, and there are times when I am bummed. I am legitimately like, gosh, I really enjoyed working with that firm and I we were doing good work. I had plans and now they’re not gonna happen. and

Delisi Friday (12:02.561)
Yeah.

Karin (12:10.051)
Or, you know, for whatever reason I don’t think they’re going to the right place or whatever. It’s just a disappointment. But to lead with that disappointment and be there’s agencies can be awful. And I’ve seen it so many times. They lock things down, they don’t do the transition well, they hoard the work, they they just don’t make they’re not professional about it. And it is such a huge mistake. Have you seen this? And

Delisi Friday (12:14.69)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (12:33.108)
Mm, mm.

Delisi Friday (12:39.537)
absolutely. I anyone who’s watching the video, I tried really hard to like just keep my facial expressions at a minimum because I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Karin (12:39.634)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin (12:47.583)
Yeah. I mean, like, I I do feel like there’s especially for people who are going from one website provider to another, there’s there was a number of years where the bar was so low. And I was getting clients from places where things were being done where I was like, you are kidding me. Like I basically just have to get on the phone and not do illegal activities and I’m doing a better job than them, you know? Like

Delisi Friday (13:14.635)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I I get it. to to bring back unreasonable hospitality though, like and and mistakes and why that’s all important. I think one of the things I really love about that book is it talks about the experience and what you’re doing to be memorable and those little things to look out for that make you stand out.

Karin (13:18.77)
Yeah.

Karin (13:23.826)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (13:38.412)
And that’s where I think it’s really important for lawyers to consider what that experience is for their current clients. Because if you deliver a great experience, it’s memorable, you make them feel special, then regardless of what the outcome is, the way that you made them feel is gonna stick around. And those positive feelings and the positive experience is what will drive referrals.

Karin (13:44.83)
Yes.

Karin (13:56.521)
Yeah.

Karin (14:02.525)
Yeah, so I wrote down before we start recording, I wrote down good, like good work versus remember and trust. So I think that this idea of like good work is what everybody thinks referrals are. And I think we’re both saying I we it’s sort of wrong. versus the other side of it is what it really is, what referrals really are, is

The memory and being memorable combined with trust. So you can’t just be memorable for like a bad experience. Obviously, that’s not gonna work. Or it may work in the reverse where it’s like, yeah, we’re gonna not, we’re gonna do the opposite of refer you. so let’s talk about how to so you already kind of touched on being memorable. And we briefly talked about your last name before we started recording because there is branding behind.

Delisi Friday (14:31.339)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (14:40.897)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (14:47.02)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (14:54.269)
Like things like your brand name and how to stay memorable and top of mind. And I think this comes back to that first bucket of the past clients. And how do we kind of nurture that idea and put a system around being memorable and also encouraging like the trust and building that trust factor, but also making it a system?

Delisi Friday (15:17.855)
Yes. So that’s the key because I talk about referrals all day long to lawyers. That’s what my business is based off of. But the key part of that is I can give everybody ideas. I can give everyone suggestions. I could create a beautiful outline for you on how you create a system around this. But if you don’t create the system and no one actually takes the actions, then that paper is worthless.

Karin (15:30.9)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (15:47.24)
The strategy is worthless. And so what you just described is key. None of this makes sense and none of this will work until someone actually takes the action and does the things. I would much rather someone decide to take one action in the year and do one thing and commit to it and see it through than say,

Karin (16:09.588)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (16:10.753)
I’m gonna do this and this and this. And it’s five different things and five different directions. And there’s no clear strategy on what you’re doing and why. It’s just because I decided to. I would much rather someone commit to one thing and do it well and decide this is what they’re doing. And then maybe the next year they extend to two things and work your way up because it’s what I call spray and pray marketing. I don’t want someone to just spray and pray with their marketing. I want it to be very intentional.

Karin (16:35.165)
Yeah, totally.

Right. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (16:40.461)
Who are we targeting? What are we going to do to get this idea of referrals in front of this target audience? How do I measure its success? Can I do it again? And who’s going to implement and make sure this happens? I want them to think about all of that stuff first before they start doing a whole bunch of things all over the place. And that’s the part that’s key.

Karin (17:00.991)
Well, and the last thing you said is, okay, you know, who am I gonna target? And there was a couple other steps. And then the last thing was, and how am I gonna make sure this happens? Because that is the key. Like that’s where you started and this is where it falls apart. And everybody anybody who’s listening to this and thinking, like, this is something I need to do, this is the difference between it happening or not happening and being a thing. And you may have like you said, you may have all the best in p intentions, but whether you have this system around it.

Delisi Friday (17:09.453)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (17:14.252)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (17:23.755)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (17:30.855)
And whether that system is automated is going to be the difference between this making any money or not. So let’s let’s get into the how part then. So you’ve got the four what are we calling them? Categories, buckets, avenues. Okay, four audiences. Okay.

Delisi Friday (17:38.466)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (17:46.239)
Say four audiences. There are four audiences you can target for referrals, and that’s where you start.

Karin (17:53.031)
Okay, so past clients, current clients, current referral sources, future referral sources, right? Okay, so we’re gonna pick one of those, and then let’s say we’re gonna start with current referral sources, because I feel like that’s where a lot of people feel like the gold is, and then in a lot of cases that is the truth. So let’s say you’re an estate planning attorney and you have current referral sources that are like

Delisi Friday (18:00.331)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Karin (18:21.043)
financial advisors, there there’s, you know, another guy in your office building that does that. And there’s, you know, maybe a couple other kind of parallel type businesses. And you’ve got all kind of got together and had coffee on occasion. you’ve got their business card sitting on your desk. But there’s beyond that, that’s about it. That’s as far as you’ve gone. And you’re like, this feels good. What what where would you say to start with that?

Delisi Friday (18:41.207)
Yeah, yeah.

Delisi Friday (18:50.209)
Yes. So what you just described is a lot of people because what usually starts to happen is people will say, man, started to realize I got a lot more referrals this year. I started to realize I got a lot more referrals this year than the year before. Something is here, but they’re not doing anything to generate them. So then you have to decide, well, what do I do to continue to increase those current referrals coming in? What I start with is looking at where those current referrals come from.

Karin (18:53.897)
Yeah.

Karin (19:05.928)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (19:20.203)
And then analysis is who are the people currently sending me cases? If it is a reasonable amount of contacts that you can nurture those relationships on your own, then that’s where you start. But if you look at the list and you realize, ooh, this is let’s just say it’s 20 contacts, 20 people refer to you cases. And you’re like, I’m a solo. It’s gonna be really hard for me to keep in touch with all 20 of these people. I don’t know what to do.

Then I would advise that person, okay, now I would say take one extra bit of information and tier those relationships based on the attorney fees you earned from those partners. Because maybe you had 20 partners and a few of them sent you five cases, one sent you one case, and you’re just looking at numbers as a whole. If you can actually take it a step further and look at attorney’s fees earned.

Maybe the lawyer who sent you one case actually sent you the biggest. And the lawyer who sent you five cases actually sent you some of the smaller cases. I like to analyze and analyze those relationships based on their value when the attorney I’m working with does not have enough time to nurture each of those in the same manner. So you start there first, depending on the size of your list, then you tier them if your list is a little bit big.

Karin (20:22.601)
Right.

Delisi Friday (20:48.225)
And then you have a really honest conversation with yourself and you say, time, team, tools. How much time do I really have to nurture these relationships? Who on my team do I have who can help me do this? And sometimes the answer is no one. The team is you. Sometimes it’s you. And tools. What tools do I have available for me to use to nurture those relationships? Sometimes.

Karin (21:05.267)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (21:16.717)
Tools is money. Okay. I have a set budget and my tool is money. X amount of dollars is what I have available to help me nurture those relationships. Okay. Sometimes someone will say, I have a corporate account with, I don’t know, this one gift basket company that I use locally. And we can do gift baskets and I can do a gifting program. Whatever those tools are, use those tools.

And sometimes for the solo attorney listening to this podcast who says, I don’t have time. I have no team. It’s me. And I have no tools. What do I do? Then I say, okay, we need to really sit down and decide. Do you really have no time or is that an excuse? Because everyone can make time for what’s important. If you realize these 20 referral relationships made a difference in your business.

Karin (21:55.209)
Yeah. Right.

Delisi Friday (22:13.951)
If I told you making it a goal to meet with at least two referral partners once a month, and if you did that, you can bring in 10, 20, $100,000 more to your business, you would do it. Now, I can’t guarantee that. If I could, I’d be retired and I would be on a yacht right now when we were doing this podcast. If I was still talking to people, but

Karin (22:31.582)
Right.

Exactly. Right. Right.

Delisi Friday (22:39.861)
I can promise you, more likely than not, if you put intention into your relationships and you carve out the time to take those actions and nurture them, you will get business from it. I can’t tell you when and I can’t tell you how or how much, but it’ll it’ll work.

Karin (22:53.181)
Right. No, but but looking at that list of your referral sources, let’s say you look at those 20 people that you’re describing. And let’s just go big. Let’s say they brought in $10 million last year. Clearly, like that is a gold mine source of business. Maybe it was $10,000, but e one way or the other, there’s value there.

I I find it hard to imagine looking at referral sources and having the number be like not worth it. have you ever had that happen where you’ve kind of looked through a list of referral sources or the the referrals that are are or aren’t happening and there’s really like not any value in there? Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (23:27.501)
Absolutely.

Delisi Friday (23:39.074)
No, there’s always value. There’s always value. And here’s the other part. You know this because you work with so many other law firms. A referral is always going to beat out an ad because an ad will never convert like a referral can, because you cannot buy trust. You can’t buy it. You could try. Go ahead. But the trust that comes from a referral.

Karin (23:52.755)
Hundred percent.

Karin (24:00.477)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Delisi Friday (24:07.719)
Is priceless. I had a lawyer who actually had one of his ads convert. Someone called in, they were gonna hire him, didn’t sign, called him back within an hour and said, I actually decided to hire another attorney. And he said, Why? We had a great conversation. I would love to know. And the client said, It’s because someone referred me to the lawyer they used for a similar case. And I really wanted to use this person because they spoke so highly of them when they made the referral. And

Karin (24:27.657)
Yeah. Yep.

Karin (24:36.041)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (24:37.345)
That’s why, because it was a great example. Now it wasn’t great. Obviously, my client’s not excited about that, but I reminded him this is why you care about and you should pay attention to referrals because you’re spending the money on ads, but that person just told you the referral beat it. And that’s why you can’t forget about referrals.

Karin (24:38.644)
Right.

Karin (24:43.719)
No, but it’s a lesson. Yeah. Right.

Karin (24:55.698)
Yeah.

Karin (24:59.175)
Yeah, I think there’s no question the type of call that you get from that a cold ad versus the type of call that you get from a referral is an entirely different call. The tone, the sort of the attitude, just everything about it when I get a call from a referral source, or I will honestly say if they have listened to my podcast, it’s kind of this warm referral.

Delisi Friday (25:09.129)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karin (25:25.373)
Because they feel like they already know me. They’ve heard me talk, they’ve heard me laugh at with people, they’ve heard kind of my approach. And I’m very, I have a very strong opinion and I say very kind of clear, cut and dry things. You either like that or you don’t. And if you do, you’re gonna get on the call. If you don’t, you’re not gonna bother scheduling a call with me. So that that call that comes through when they mention that they heard my podcast is entirely different from someone who’s just a cold.

Delisi Friday (25:27.786)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (25:41.485)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (25:55.474)
Never listened the podcast, never came through a referral. Those kinds of calls come in and they are they’re immediately sort of cold and suspect, and they’re asking a lot of questions that are on the spectrum of micromanaging. And those instantly raise red flags to me. And I instantly am like, I’m not sure if this is going to be a good fit for either of us because it’s just not it. We’re not feeling good about each other. It feels way too much like this.

Delisi Friday (26:10.391)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (26:19.649)
Yes.

Karin (26:25.169)
Sales experience versus this relationship.

Delisi Friday (26:28.813)
Absolutely. And you just said something that I want to point out to anyone listening. When someone refers an individual to a friend or a loved one, that person doesn’t just call them. They’re going to do their research. So if someone said, You need to call Karin right now, she’s the person to help you. I’m going to make the phone call. But before I make the phone call, I’m going to look you up. So what I don’t want anyone to forget is

Karin (26:41.927)
Right. Yes.

Delisi Friday (26:57.877)
Yes, you pay attention to referrals, but you never stop doing the other things that are equally important to building your brand, building your positive reputation and what people see when they’re looking up your name online because someone referred you. It all goes hand in hand and it’s all still important.

Karin (27:16.711)
And what you’re saying is so important when it comes to this branding strategy and the messaging that we put together because we come back to it over and over. We are not speaking to those cold ads. Usually, sometimes in some cases, we want to speak to them in a certain way. But usually the conversation and the messaging is meant to feel like you are a referral source and you’re landing on a referred client, sorry, and you’re landing on our website.

with that in mind. You are already a warm lead. And oftentimes we will even build in to websites a whole section of the site for referral sources. So we will have a section, you know, for going back to that example of the estate planning attorney for like the kind of referral people that might be sending them clients, like the financial advisor or whoever is in there. And it’ll have a part about

Delisi Friday (27:47.757)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (28:13.939)
This is how we’re going to treat your clients. This is what we care about. This is what you can expect when you send us clients. And we want you to number one, know this is a big part of our business. We care about it. And we’re going to speak to it here on the website, which is not something you commonly find on a lot of websites for law firms, but it really works. And it’s one of these things that all of a sudden they’re like, yeah, that page is getting a lot of traffic. And people mention it.

And it’s not like trying to get the ad. So the traffic is not the kind of typical like stuff that we’re tracking. It’s it’s it’s different.

Delisi Friday (28:50.401)
You know what’s interesting? If you have a referral page on your law firm, if I’m looking at that law firm website, I’m also thinking, wow, you must be doing something right and you must be trustworthy, that people are referring you business. So it it also is building trust because you’re signaling to me that referrals is a part of your business. That’s the other part, is you have to put those referral signals out.

Karin (29:03.516)
Yes.

Karin (29:17.917)
Yeah. Yes.

Delisi Friday (29:18.769)
And you can do it on your website, you can do it in your social media. You have to put that out there. You can do it in intake. Teach intake to say, and who may we thank for referring you to our law firm? Even if it wasn’t, even if they just said, I Googled you. Okay, well, just make the assumption because maybe that’s when you can also uncover, I Googled you because I was referred. And that’s like acquisition is sometimes very messy. And so you do your best.

Karin (29:29.875)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

Right. That’s fine. Yeah.

Karin (29:45.128)
Yeah. But then do you talk about, okay, so if you going to that intake process, if you have that question in there, which I it’s super important part of my intake also, because I want to have systems around making sure that I’m thinking and following up. And how do you recommend setting that up?

Delisi Friday (29:50.189)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (30:07.051)
Yes, so that is actually a huge area of opportunity for a lot of law firms. If you take nothing from this podcast and you take zero actions to generate referrals, the one piece of advice I would give everyone is make sure the people who are referring you business to your law firm right now are thanked. Even if you did it within three weeks, I would much rather you do it within three weeks.

Karin (30:29.374)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (30:36.779)
Then not at all. Because when someone refers business to you and you convert that lead to an actual new client, if you never took the moment to tell them thank you, they don’t feel appreciated and you’re less likely to get the referral again. My hope is you do. But realistically, if I sent you a client and you converted them, but you never told me thank you and acknowledged it, I would be like, ooh.

Karin (30:38.014)
Yeah.

Karin (30:53.095)
Right. Yeah.

Karin (31:03.795)
Yeah, what’s going on? Right. Right. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (31:03.853)
They’re not even gonna say thanks. Like I really care about this person. This person is my aunt. And I sent them to you because I knew you were great. You’re not even gonna say thank you. And so you don’t want anyone to feel that way. So my suggestion is make sure when you’re tracking what leads convert into a new client, you’re also taking a step further and saying, and of those conversions, which ones came from referrals? Can I identify who that person was? If I can.

Karin (31:15.422)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (31:32.948)
Someone on my team needs to be responsible for saying thank you. Maybe the person on the team is a lawyer, and the lawyer just needs to, at the very minimum, send a text message or send an email that says, Hey Karin, I just want to tell you thank you so much for referring to Lisi. I really appreciate your referrals. Two senses, three senses, that’s it. Please take the action. But in action,

Is going to drive away the people who are sending you business because they don’t feel appreciated and people want to feel appreciated. Mm-hmm.

Karin (32:04.157)
Yeah. And they also kind of question your systems and like what’s going on over there that you can’t send me a quick email after I just sent you something that is probably of high value. And whether it’s valuable or not, just the conversation that someone else is having about you that led to anything is valuable to me. But to me, if it’s basically over a $50 value, which could

Delisi Friday (32:26.977)
Yes.

Karin (32:31.999)
Come on, like everything’s gonna be over a $50 value. Like I can’t fill up my tank for even a fraction of that this these days. I’m gonna send a very quick first message. And in that message, I always say, regardless of the outcome, I appreciate it so much because regardless of the outcome, you never know how that conversation is gonna go, all the dynamics in play in the decision and how that’s gonna play out.

Delisi Friday (32:49.045)
Yeah.

Karin (33:01.671)
Like there’s just so many too too many variables in the process and the decision and all of that that regardless of the outcome, I appreciate it so much. And then I use this thing called thanks. Have you seen this website?

Delisi Friday (33:01.995)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (33:16.927)
Is it thanks.io and they send out a card and you can also you can also like add a gift card to it too.

Karin (33:19.121)
It might be. It’s like missing a vowel.

Karin (33:25.929)
So it’s you can do gift cards by email. Have you it’s like, yeah, okay. So I’ve been you using this for years on you’ll see this. Like this a little spoiler alert, but on the podcast, when I have a guest, you’ll see like you know, when the our episode goes live that I send everyone like a cup of coffee. So it’s like a Starbucks gift card, thank you. Because the main reason I do it is because it becomes part of my system. It’s easy. I can do it in 10 seconds.

Delisi Friday (33:29.037)
Uh-huh.

Delisi Friday (33:35.042)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (33:38.882)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (33:53.133)
Mm.

Karin (33:55.706)
I have kind of scripted little messages in there and I have an account and I just have to basically paste in an email address and schedule it and it’s done. so that in my in my world, that needs to be a huge part of the decision process. Can I automate it? Can I make this easier on me and make it part of a system? And if so, then yeah, let’s go. But if I have to

Delisi Friday (34:05.452)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (34:21.069)
Yeah.

Karin (34:22.309)
order and go through and decide something and da-da-da-da-da. it’s less likely to happen. I will say for bigger gifts, for like bigger client things, I do have my assistant step in and because I’m not going to just give, you know, a client who or some something that’s of thousands of dollars of value, I’m not going to give them a cup of coffee. Like that just feels not on par. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (34:29.175)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (34:45.941)
Agreed. Agreed. No, I love that. I think you’re absolutely right because I hear that all the time too. A lawyer is going to say, look, if it’s just me, I need this to be simple and fast and easy. Because the biggest challenge is doing the thing. If the obstacle is their time and their ability to do it, if I make it more of a challenge, they’re not going to do it. So I love what you’re doing because that is a system that you can do very quickly.

Karin (35:01.182)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (35:16.173)
my suggestion as well is also handwritten.com because then you can put the address into handwritten. Handwritten will send out the card for you. You can send something with it also. So it’s very similar to that. Either one of those works. The point is just to do the thing. And again, it goes back to if this is a contact, you have their cell phone number, at least send them a text to say thank you. If this is a contact, you have their email, please send them an email, but please do something.

Karin (35:21.033)
nice.

Karin (35:25.939)
Nice.

Karin (35:39.487)
Yeah. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (35:44.866)
Those things are not very difficult to do and they are not a huge time factor where it’s gonna take you 15 minutes to do it. Do something because that small action that takes just a few moments could be the reason you do or you don’t get another referral. You have to do it because at that moment it’s so key in whether or not you get more referrals.

Karin (36:03.143)
Right. Yeah.

Karin (36:10.259)
Yeah, and also like recognize your own challenges. Like if this is too hard for you to do, get someone else to do it. and recognize, okay, I have the hardest time with X, Y, or Z. So I’m not the person for this. This needs to be done by someone else in the office, or it needs to be automated by some AI bot or whatever it is, I need to offload this because it has to happen one way or the other. I’m not gonna accept that I’m just gonna be.

I’m gonna let this slide and you know, at the same time, while I’m letting that slide, I’m also like letting lots of cases and potential work, but also my reputation slide. Like we’re not gonna do that. We’re gonna make sure this happens one way or the other. And maybe it’s not on my desk. Maybe I find someone else to manage this.

Delisi Friday (36:58.709)
Mm-hmm. Sometimes delegating it to make sure it gets done is a key part of it.

Karin (37:02.311)
Yeah. Yeah. Is this where you come in? Is this the kind of do you help them set up these services and these systems?

Delisi Friday (37:10.271)
Yes. So what I will do is I’ll talk to them and we’ll kind of talk through well, what audience of the four do you want to reach? Let’s talk through time team tools. If I help you kind of map out what this looks like, how much time do you have? Who on your team can help and what tools do you have available? And then based from there, I will help them figure out, okay, here’s my suggestion, here’s my suggestion, here’s my suggestion. And I’m not going to charge them for that, but I will say,

Karin (37:16.274)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (37:36.844)
And here’s my fee. If you want me to coach and consult you along the way to make sure it gets done. Because sometimes, honestly, sometimes they just need someone to come in and say, okay, did you do it? You didn’t? Okay, let’s do it right now. It’s like an accountability aspect. It just depends on where they’re at. But yes, that’s where I’ll come in to help them. Because if you tell me what audience you want to target and whether you’ve got a budget or you gotta be scrappy, I can help you figure it out because this is like.

Karin (37:47.091)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Karin (38:04.905)
Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (38:05.761)
This is my love language. And so I’ll help you. Like, heck, I’ve even got some discount codes. Like, I’ll be like, and I got a coupon for that. And so that’s what I’ll do. because yeah. Mm-hmm.

Karin (38:11.935)
Nice. Yeah. And don’t let that be the hurdle. You know, you’re you’re you should be focused on being a lawyer and being a good lawyer and like setting up your firm. And part of that should be knowing when to delegate and hire the right person for this. And don’t, like I said, don’t let it slide because this is not your thing. Just take the money or your as your tool, like you’re saying, and use that to get it done by hiring the right person.

Delisi Friday (38:28.694)
Yes.

Karin (38:40.499)
I mean at some point a lot of times that’s just the right answer.

Delisi Friday (38:40.694)
Yes.

Or and and honestly just knowing that you can automate something for a fraction of the price. Whenever someone says, I have zero time, zero team, zero tools, then my answer every single time is at the very least, you will say thank you by email or text message or phone call to the people sending you referrals. And you will set up an automated happy birthday card and I will do it for you if you give me the list.

Karin (39:07.017)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (39:07.361)
Where those happy birthday cards go out for a full year. So you stay top of mind that way with your former clients. Those are the two things I will suggest if someone says, I’ve got nothing, Delisi. I’m like, no, no, no, no. You’re gonna do something. You’re gonna do something. You’re gonna figure this out. No.

Karin (39:13.886)
Nice.

Karin (39:20.221)
Yeah. No, no, we are not accepting nothing. Okay, before we get into the book review section, the last thing I wanted to ask you about is about kind of email lists and email newsletters and staying on top because I’ve heard you talk about a lot of other tools, but I we haven’t really got into that piece. And I I feel like we could probably have a whole other show about it. But in a nutshell, where does that sit on your

Delisi Friday (39:32.14)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (39:35.66)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (39:45.065)
kind of list of where what what’s successful and kind of the priority of your tools.

Delisi Friday (39:52.822)
You’re right. That could be a whole other episode. so email marketing, yes. I think if if someone has the time, team, and tools to be able to do some kind of email marketing on a monthly, bi monthly, or weekly basis, then I will suggest they do that because they should be staying in touch with their former clients at the very least. I do think it’s important to segment those lists, and that’s what I’ll always suggest because

Karin (39:54.225)
Yeah, right.

Delisi Friday (40:20.427)
The email content you put out to your forward clients is going to be very different than the email content that you’re going to send to other attorneys in different practice areas who refer cases to you. So I will suggest segmenting those lists and then doing emails at the very least once a month to those lists to nurture them. But I’m also suggesting other things because a lot of people do emails.

Karin (40:25.106)
It should be. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (40:46.763)
I’m a huge fan of print mail if you have the ability to do it. I’m a huge fan of gifts if you have the ability to do it. It doesn’t even have to be expensive. But something to physically put in the mail and receive will stand out because everyone does emails. And I don’t want to say don’t do email. That’s not my message at all. Do it. But if you do it, don’t make it your only thing.

Karin (41:03.657)
Yeah.

Karin (41:07.134)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (41:11.797)
Make sure you’re doing something to at least stay in front of them in additional ways so you don’t put all your eggs in the email basket.

Karin (41:18.771)
Yeah, the other thing I’m hearing you say is do it, but don’t, don’t kind of half ass it. Like, do it well. Because if everybody’s doing it, you need to stand out. And I really think what you’re saying about segmenting, that’s where people get it wrong. They just send out the one message or newsletter or whatever to their entire list. And I see this all the time. I get the lists. We help people put this together all the time. And they’re like, yeah, just send it all to this list. And I’m like,

Delisi Friday (41:23.522)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (41:34.935)
Mm.

Karin (41:47.872)
No, like you’re you’re negating the whole point. By sending a generic message to your entire list, it’s just sort of a waste. And think about that. Think about all these former clients and the things you should probably be telling them or suggesting or the message you want them to receive versus the message to these referral sources. And if you send a generic message to both of them, this is how you end up either getting unsubscribes or just in the spam bucket.

Delisi Friday (41:52.812)
Yeah.

Karin (42:18.033)
And that’s the worst thing. You do that’s what you don’t wanna do. So

Delisi Friday (42:18.221)
A hundred percent. Yes. Yes. It yes. A hundred percent the message isn’t going to hit. They’re not gonna care. And that’s what you don’t want. I think the the challenge there is the people just wanna check the box and say, I’m doing it. I would much rather you do it well. Yeah.

Karin (42:33.501)
Yeah. Right. And then they get mad. I tried it. It didn’t work. I tried it. No, that’s you know, it’s another marketing thing. Doesn’t work. It’s all snake oil. Yeah. Right. Okay. It is time for the book review section. I know so we talked very briefly about the unreasonable hospitality, which we will I’ll link to that in the show notes also because I think I love that concept, but I know you have an even better one. So Deleuze, what’s the book that we’re gonna actually add to the library today?

Delisi Friday (42:42.273)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (43:00.811)
Yes. Yes. The other book to add to the library, for anyone watching in video, you’ll see part of it is showing in my video. But I love the book Analog Marketing in a Digital World by Jay Rouain. And Jay Rouain is a criminal defense attorney in Connecticut. He wrote that book and gives real examples of how he has generated referrals from his network.

Karin (43:16.659)
Okay.

Karin (43:20.467)
Okay.

Delisi Friday (43:29.879)
former clients, referral partners, and the things he has done and the system he created around it. Some of it’s around gifting, some of it is around community events. And it’s very actionable. It gives real examples of what lawyers can be doing. And I’m a huge fan of telling someone what to do and giving them the framework to do it themselves because I never want to gatekeep it. I just want to tell you. And if you want my help, I’m here.

Karin (43:36.752)
Nice.

Karin (43:56.618)
Totally. Yeah.

Delisi Friday (43:58.102)
Jay’s book is excellent at giving examples of how he did it, real things that anyone can do, and telling people the success he found along the way and the things that he found that didn’t work. And it’s a great book for anyone who wants to consider. Maybe I don’t do everything digital marketing. Maybe I make sure I’m not forgetting the people side of it. And I’m a huge believer that people who lean too much into digital AI and

Karin (44:17.566)
Yeah.

Delisi Friday (44:28.193)
don’t remember that we’re all still people who want attention and connection. I think those are the ones who will stand out. So I’m huge believer in analog marketing and not forgetting to be a human.

Karin (44:32.447)
Yeah.

Karin (44:36.308)
Yes.

Karin (44:40.819)
Listen, so many of our recent shows are all about AI. And I am, I am so in love with AI and all of the things that it can do to support with huge caveats. Huge, huge caveats. Most of the shows that you’ll see that we’ve done talk about using AI and being human and finding that balance and where it’s going to end up working in the end. Cause we’re still in this sort of like figuring it out stage. And I truly, firmly believe.

Delisi Friday (45:04.204)
Mm.

Karin (45:10.537)
That there is going to be this resurgence in analog marketing because there’s this trust recession. And I’ve talked about this before. People are super skeptical, even more so, of marketing and everything they’re seeing online. And it should be, they should be. This it should have been this way all along. I really believe that there’s this kind of opposite of what people think is happening. AI is sort of unveiling the true humans that are doing good work.

Delisi Friday (45:23.435)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (45:39.602)
And so those people who have put all their work into ads and the fake stuff and the unreal marketing that is sort of masking the fact that they’re not doing great work, they’re gonna go away or they’re just gonna kind of sink to the bottom and the rest of us will rise. And so these things like having a podcast where we’re two humans kind of talking about these things and we’re not just kind of pasting together some fake marketing content.

Delisi Friday (46:03.745)
Yeah.

Karin (46:05.527)
I will be using AI to support the podcast and get this out there and find things to support this human experience of you and I sitting here chatting. But the podcast wasn’t created by AI. So kind of keeping those differences there. And the firms that I’m supporting right now that are doing the best work are heavily.

Delisi Friday (46:19.113)
Right. Yes.

Karin (46:29.191)
Leaning into analog stuff. They’re going back into ideas and they’re asking me questions like, hey, is it weird to like, do you want to help me make a trifold brochure? And I’m like, Yes, I do. I need to get you some print materials. And this is at my core. Like, this is the marketing I’ve done ages ago. so that is a long-winded way of saying I am so

Delisi Friday (46:34.817)
Mm-hmm.

Karin (46:52.891)
So on board with this idea of analog marketing, and we will obviously link to that book in the show notes and all of that stuff.

Delisi Friday (46:56.087)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes. Get the book. You can buy it. Or you can also you can get the audio version too if you like to listen. I like to listen when I’m driving or getting ready. but I agree with everything you just said. I think analog marketing is going to stand out again. And I welcome it. I love analog marketing.

Karin (47:14.461)
100%. Yeah. Right. Exactly. It’s real. It’s the real thing that is the antidote to the fake stuff. okay, so what is the big takeaway that you would like? You’ve mentioned a couple things that I feel like, you know, all of them would be good moments, good points for this moment, where if someone’s done listening to this episode and they are thinking about all the stuff that you talked about, they’re going to get this analog marketing book and all this stuff.

Delisi Friday (47:19.628)
Mm-hmm.

Delisi Friday (47:23.65)
Yes.

Karin (47:42.725)
What’s the one thing they should do first, an actual thing to do?

Delisi Friday (47:47.661)
I think the one thing they should do if they only took one action would be look at the amount of leads that you had coming into your office. Then decide of those leads, which ones came from referrals. Can you identify which ones were referred to you by someone? And then take an action and thank those individuals. It is free ninety-nine to tell someone thank you.

Karin (48:11.112)
Yes.

Delisi Friday (48:15.335)
And if you do not say thank you, then the amount of referrals coming into your office is going to decrease. And if you want to increase them and you don’t want to spend a single penny, at the very least, say thank you. I think thank you is a very powerful phrase. And we when we forget to say thank you, then we diminish the relationships that we have with people. And so at the very least, if you don’t do anything, at the very least,

Karin (48:38.045)
Yeah. Hundred percent.

Delisi Friday (48:43.021)
Please tell the people referring you business, thank you.

Karin (48:47.006)
Yeah, awesome. DeleC Friday, thank you so much for being here. This was such a fun conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Delisi Friday (48:52.366)
Thanks for having me. Me too.