How AI Search Rewards Real Human Expertise

Karin Conroy (00:07.928)
AI search is changing how people find information fast. Tools like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Google’s AI results aren’t just listing links anymore. They’re deciding answers and what gets surfaced. And that raises a bigger question. What actually gets rewarded in this new system? Because for years, most content online has been optimized for algorithms, done all the keyword stuffing, all of the stuff that I’ve seen over all of the years for good and bad.

but not for real expertise. But now something interesting is happening. AI doesn’t just want content, it wants credible experience, backed answers and reviews where it’s actual humans telling other people what it was like to work with you. So that means that law firms and professionals who actually know what they’re doing might finally have an advantage again.

So today’s guest has a unique perspective on all of this. Joe Toscano is a former Google design ethicist. Is that right? Ethicist? Was that your official title? I don’t know.

Joe At Service Stories (01:10.86)
No, no, no. I was a product design and marketing consultant. did both design and code for Google as a consultant.

Karin Conroy (01:17.882)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (01:21.676)
Okay, all right, let’s back that up. Joe Toscano is a former Google design and product. What was it? I already forgot.

Joe At Service Stories (01:29.41)
No worries. You could just say former design consultant at Google.

Karin Conroy (01:33.378)
Okay. Former design consultant to Google who worked inside the systems that now shape how information is distributed at scale. And he’s also the author of Automating Humanity. So we’re going to talk a little bit about humaneness and humanity in terms of AI, but we really want to focus more on how the intersection of AI technology, human behavior, and how that all works to make people find you within AI search.

So today’s episode is called how AI search rewards real human expertise. And Joe Toscana is, is a, my guest here. So welcome. Thank you for being here. All right. Let’s start with by talking about Google and whatever your title was there. How did that, how did that like come to be a core part of where you’re at today in terms of.

Joe At Service Stories (02:13.654)
Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m very excited to talk about

Joe At Service Stories (02:20.642)
Thank

Yeah.

huh

Karin Conroy (02:30.756)
the kind of approach, the style. I know that at one point you were noticing sort of how we as humans were just data points for Google and we were sort of these unpaid employees of Google because we’re data. So tell me a little bit about kind of how that started and led to where you are now.

Joe At Service Stories (02:45.207)
Okay.

Thank

Joe At Service Stories (02:53.026)
Yeah. Well, maybe I’ll take it a little farther back even because part of my, I guess, push to speak out against it started actually because of some training I had in college. I was one of those kids really good at math going into school. They actually said, you should be a math professor. at age eight, at age 18, I thought that would be the worst thing I could do with my life. And so I went into psychology. I then leveraged those skills to be in, the research program. So that was where I kept my math skills.

Karin Conroy (03:09.062)
wow.

Karin Conroy (03:14.148)
night.

Joe At Service Stories (03:22.752)
analytics, I was a sophomore in graduate level research programs. And the thing that put me into where I am today is, a lot of that training. You know, I had to learn data ethics. had to understand how to get, how to get our methodologies passed through an IRB and the sensitivity, because we saw the historical problems that abuse of participants had caused, you know, Zimbardo prison experiment was one of the most cited ones you can look back on where

Karin Conroy (03:34.632)
interesting.

Karin Conroy (03:45.785)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (03:50.904)
They had a psychology study of, of power. you, when you label and tell somebody you’re the prison guards and another cohort that you are the prisoners and they’re, they’re all the students in the, basement of college and seeing the power dynamics, you know, that was one of the biggest abuses of psychological research back in the day. So I, anyway, I went through all that training and I eventually decided research.

Karin Conroy (03:57.008)
yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (04:05.263)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (04:16.554)
In like the academic sense was not for me. I wanted to do applied, not theoretical. And so I started to pick up code and learn, taught myself and built a career around that, design and code. I always thought I wanted to get to Google. To me, Google was like, that was it. I was like, yes, that’s all the data in the world. That’s all the psychology experiments. And really the truth is, that that’s exactly what it is. Right. And not just Google, but Silicon Valley at large.

Karin Conroy (04:19.258)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (04:31.502)
Yeah. The end all. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Karin Conroy (04:42.095)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (04:45.87)
Amazon, Facebook, all of them. What I felt and why I left is that they had created the largest psychological study in the history of the world with no, with no guardrails. And it was changing our communications. It’s changing and excuse me, has changed our democracy. And I don’t know that I believe it’s for the favor of the people. And so I left now, what 2017 I left almost 10 years ago now.

Karin Conroy (04:46.074)
Sure. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (04:54.638)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:03.482)
Sure. Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (05:15.726)
Okay.

Joe At Service Stories (05:16.046)
And, I, I was 27. I had no idea what I was doing. I just knew I had to get this message out. You know, I had to make it simple. honestly, I ran kind of paranoid for a little while because, this was three, four years after like Edward Snowden had come out. Right. And then, and then you hadn’t really had anybody who made a lot of noise about it for some time. You started to have like, Tristan Harris. So my book got kind of popular. got some traction on speaking and.

Karin Conroy (05:19.279)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:34.572)
yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:45.838)
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the book and then that led into this being a consultant on Social Dilemma, the movie,

Joe At Service Stories (05:45.88)
did some things and then.

Joe At Service Stories (05:52.802)
Yep. I was not even a consultant. I was a featured expert actually. So I’m in the movie. I’m in the film. But also, yes, my book, I handed it to them. Being from Nebraska, I spent my whole life trying to help my family and friends understand what the hell I do. You know, I was not a doctor or a lawyer. I was the failure. And, and I said, I got to make this book for the people back home. So if you see my book, it’s basically a coffee table book. And that was intentional.

Karin Conroy (05:57.985)
amazing. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:08.526)
Yeah, right. And so you wrote a book. Yeah, right.

Karin Conroy (06:18.179)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (06:22.292)
I helped design patterns that unfortunately were addictive, right? That’s just what it is. The thing is those same patterns are exactly what your doctor uses to get you to eat healthier. It’s what your personal trainer does to get you to lose weight. Like there’s no way to actually regulate it properly without damaging other good parts of it. So anyway, I took those same patterns and I put it in a book. If you pick up my book, every chapter is like three to six pages long.

Karin Conroy (06:32.858)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (06:46.838)
you could pretty much skim all the headers and look at the infographics and the art and understand what you’re reading.

Karin Conroy (06:47.006)
wow.

Karin Conroy (06:51.65)
and get the whole nice. Okay, so I just wanna, I know we wanna get more into like the stuff you’re doing now, but really briefly, let’s kind of cover. The book was called Automating Humanity. where are, were you in a good place at that point? Or were you in a place where you were kind of revealing sort of behind the curtain of what you were seeing in Silicon Valley and like,

Joe At Service Stories (07:11.203)
Sure.

Joe At Service Stories (07:17.102)
Shesheh.

Karin Conroy (07:19.214)
you know, the good, bad and ugly of that or, you know, what was the position from that you were taking in that book?

Joe At Service Stories (07:24.206)
Sure. well, I’ll, I’ll start with like, never got in any legal trouble and that’s because I walked the gray line. I only presented stuff that was public, but it was like the kind of stuff that you wouldn’t know where to look if you weren’t living in Silicon Valley, right? it’s stuff that’s buried deep in the internet and like, you wouldn’t have seen it cause it didn’t get publicity kind of stuff. and then I painted stories and analogies with the stuff that was public to say, you know, imagine if this is public, what is happening inside.

Karin Conroy (07:30.233)
Okay good.

Karin Conroy (07:39.535)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (07:54.042)
Okay.

Joe At Service Stories (07:54.072)
So I never ever leaked anything per se. And legally, I never let anything out that would not have been public already, which allowed me to really do my work without getting in trouble. But for sure, was paranoid for some time after it came out.

Karin Conroy (08:01.722)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (08:07.418)
Sure. There were people that were probably not happy with what you were saying because you were being very careful, but you were also saying some things that, were not complimentary.

Joe At Service Stories (08:12.014)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, I definitely consulted lawyers. I started to study law a lot more and tried my best.

Karin Conroy (08:23.864)
What was the thing you and your lawyers were most worried about?

Joe At Service Stories (08:28.746)
you know, there’s a lot of people who were asking me, are you afraid of them, trying to kill you or something? And, and I have gotten a lot of death threats and I don’t know if they’re from, from Silicon Valley or not, but plenty. Yeah. And even my family has, ran from, from me, from me speaking out, and, telling the truth. I think it was just unveiling the addictions that were designed and the intentions behind it and things like that, right. Giving proof.

Karin Conroy (08:33.987)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:37.316)
really?

Karin Conroy (08:41.816)
What were they so mad about?

Karin Conroy (08:47.398)
What specifically?

Karin Conroy (08:53.272)
And how, yeah. And how it was very intentional and they knew they were going into like crafting and manipulating the addictions. Okay. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (08:59.116)
Ahem.

Joe At Service Stories (09:03.68)
Mm-hmm for the better of their economics model. Like that’s all it is. but, at the end of the day, what I was more concerned about was not that anybody was going to try to kill me and more that they were going to sue me to the point I wanted to die. You know, like, right. Right. Yeah. Right. As they don’t have to have a real credible claim to take me to court, right? They can just say we’re taking this and you’ve got to fight your way out. Right. Yep. So.

Karin Conroy (09:16.696)
Right, sure. They were just gonna destroy your life. Yeah. So like, which is worst? You know, having a miserable like…

Karin Conroy (09:27.64)
Right. They could just have some giant lawyers. Yeah. Right. And they can, yeah. I’ve seen that too. There was someone I used to follow that went head to head with Amazon, lost millions of dollars. And, you know, it went on for years and years and it basically destroyed their life too. So I find that really interesting. And I actually really enjoy this idea that you were saying the things you’re saying.

Joe At Service Stories (09:39.294)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (09:55.08)
within a safe zone so that they couldn’t really come for you. And also that they were just sort of given facts. Like these things we’ve all come to know about. And I think a lot of that kind of mostly drips over to social media and the way that social media is manipulated. But let’s pull that back over to AI search. Because I know that’s really where we want to focus more of our energy and talk about what fundamentally changed once

Joe At Service Stories (09:55.192)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (10:03.79)
Sure. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (10:11.212)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (10:18.87)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (10:24.768)
search became more AI driven. And then, so let’s start with that, what fundamentally changed, and then let’s go into like where that’s going and what you’ve seen.

Joe At Service Stories (10:27.33)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (10:34.414)
Sure. Yeah. mean, today we speak with search more than we type in keywords. And that was also part of this, you me wanting to leave is I was actually on the early days of chat bots. So I saw, you know, I was training chat bots in 2016, 2017, the difference between hi, like hello and hi, like Hawaii. Right. So I was in the dumb days of chat bots and I’ve watched the whole evolution. but what I really saw behind that was like, people are just telling us everything.

Karin Conroy (10:46.618)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (10:50.938)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (11:03.512)
They don’t realize like when you click a button, we can watch how you move throughout a site or an app. when you tell us everything, first of all, your words become the buttons, the navigation, right? And that means we have to distill all of it and make insights and figure out what does this person want and then help them accurately navigate it. So I saw all that stuff. And I learned a lot about where search was going. That was actually on the antitrust cases on Facebook and Google. When I talked about Google, I

Karin Conroy (11:13.711)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (11:32.654)
I told the investigators like, you’re looking at double click, you’re looking at Android. So you need to look at search because in five to 10 years, we are not going to have 10 million results. We’re going to have one answer and maybe three to six like results in that answer. So you want to talk about monopoly. Like it’s right there. Um, that blew their mind. They didn’t think it was real. They couldn’t really conceptualize that at the time. Um, yeah.

Karin Conroy (11:42.543)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (11:48.463)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (11:53.368)
Right. So just to clarify what you’re saying, cause I just want to underline that for a minute. The difference that you’re describing is how you, know, like very few of us are actually using Google search anymore. and think about how that used to look at you would get a page of answers and then you as a human got to make some choice, right? About where you were going to click and what you thought was the best possible aligned answer with whatever you were looking for. But now AI is making that choice for you.

Joe At Service Stories (12:05.059)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (12:15.404)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (12:20.474)
So when you ask that question to AI, and even Google in a lot of cases, because you’re getting those AI results at the top. So when you’re asking the question, Google is making a decision for you. so what you are describing to those investigators is where we’re at. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (12:20.728)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Joe At Service Stories (12:33.006)
Yeah. mean, look, at the end of the day, the truth is that most people never went beyond the first page of Google. so like there’s maybe the illusion of freedom in there as well. Right. To some extent, to some extent, right? Like it’s just a natural, a path in the weeds that everybody goes to the first or top five results. Right. And so,

Karin Conroy (12:43.834)
Right.

Karin Conroy (12:47.376)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (12:56.42)
Sure, sure.

Joe At Service Stories (12:58.572)
That’s also, that’s a big data thing. Like when, when Google first started ads, for example, they put it on the side and then it became at the top and then it blended in. Now you can’t even tell the difference between an ad and a result. Well, that all started because they had data back in the day where when it was on the side, they’re like, their data basically was like, well, people must be okay with ads because they don’t tell us that they hate it. cause they don’t tell you they hate it doesn’t mean they like it. Right. so anyway, all that come to play and now you’re right. Like.

Karin Conroy (13:06.638)
No. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (13:18.98)
Right. Doesn’t mean they don’t.

Joe At Service Stories (13:27.678)
Even if you’re using Google search nowadays, you’re probably going to get an answer at the top. And then now you’re going to get like promotionals behind it or below it, maybe even some videos before the promotions. And then you’re getting results. Like the actual organic results are way down now. and so I bring that up because a lot of people are like, well, it’s a fad or, know, we tried chat bots in the past. didn’t pick up. I just want everybody to realize like it’s no longer a fad when I was building the early days of it. Yeah. Everybody in Silicon Valley, you would have thought chat bots are everywhere in the

Karin Conroy (13:34.147)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (13:40.922)
Right.

Joe At Service Stories (13:57.312)
And they were absolutely not. was just in that bubble. What’s happened today is now mass adoption. And there’s so much economic momentum behind it. Like we’re not going back. This is a new paradigm of the internet and you need to figure out how to get in that answer if you want to be visible.

Karin Conroy (13:59.588)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:08.26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:14.8)
So the word gatekeeper comes to mind because, going back to what you were saying a minute ago, that there was this sort of illusion of your autonomy and your ability to make decisions. And I think that’s a really valid point based on, especially when you just look at the legal industry and how certain firms in certain geographic areas, they just are completely bulldozing through and they seem like the only.

Joe At Service Stories (14:16.748)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (14:25.268)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (14:42.224)
option for a person who’s looking for whatever it is that they’re looking for. So when it comes to where we are now, and maybe not five, but maybe eight to however many years ago, how different is this idea of Google and AI being a gatekeeper for your search? And so are they kind of a tool or a gatekeeper? And is it really that different or was that kind of there and now it’s just kind of

Joe At Service Stories (14:44.344)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (14:55.821)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (15:11.501)
magnified.

Joe At Service Stories (15:12.686)
I actually don’t think it’s that different. I think that a lot of techniques are very similar. If you have really good SEO, for example, you currently are showing up in the results, probably still relatively high, if not very high. The thing I think is going to change that we just haven’t cracked into yet very much is the fact that the way people search is so different. So the reason you rank today with your traditional keyword SEO is because no one’s figured out like really where and how to compete.

Karin Conroy (15:14.501)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (15:41.486)
in the now what’s called natural language queries. Those are totally different, but a recent study came out from AirOps, which I can send you, can link for people later. Over 17,000 queries analyzed, like chat, GPT, and Google AI kind of queries, and over 350,000 responses, obviously different kind of, they ran it like three or four different times for queries, things like that.

Karin Conroy (15:44.388)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (15:50.638)
Yeah, that would be great.

Karin Conroy (16:07.332)
Okay.

Joe At Service Stories (16:07.438)
The number one rank factor was how well does your H1 title match the query that’s put into the search bar? It’s the same kind of concept as keywords, but the query is so radically different. It’s not, you know, auto repair near me. It’s going to be, why is my AC blow in hot air when it’s set to 62? Or why is my car shaking? Am I all the drive lights on? No, and those, that’s called natural language queries rather than the keyword queries.

Karin Conroy (16:24.207)
Right.

Karin Conroy (16:28.035)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (16:35.855)
Right.

Joe At Service Stories (16:36.206)
And I think once people can start to hit those and figure out how to get into those, um, and legal, that’s even radically different, right? People don’t know the law at all. They can’t, you know, it’s like a drive train issue and automotive. Nobody knows what the heck that is. Right. Um, so, so really you can’t even target those keywords and how, how do you capture the actual thoughts of the people who are searching so that you can mirror what language they’re going to use when they have those problems?

Karin Conroy (16:50.338)
Right, right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (17:02.136)
Right. Well, and I’m picturing as you’re describing that I’m picturing even our own personal relationship and the change that has happened between the way we searched and the way I don’t even feel like it personally, it feels as much like a search. So if you have changed to kind of using chat GPT or Claude as your sort of advisor, as opposed to what you probably did five years ago, which is go to Google and search.

Joe At Service Stories (17:10.446)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (17:14.008)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (17:20.462)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (17:24.834)
Yeah. Yep.

Karin Conroy (17:30.904)
And your Google search would have been like, car service repair near me, like you were describing, or broken tail light near me, or whatever. It would not have been a complete sentence. It would have been keyword driven like that because we had been trained that that was what worked. Now it’s like you have this relationship with personally, choose Claude. So now I go to Claude and

Joe At Service Stories (17:36.184)
Yep. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (17:41.784)
See ya,

Joe At Service Stories (17:51.373)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (17:55.438)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (17:59.216)
Claude and I have a conversation about this. And this is why I feel like people have these sort of personal feelings about AI so much, because it does feel like more of a relationship in this conversation. And I’m gonna say, hey Claude, you know, my car is, there is something wrong. Like, let’s start with, there is something wrong with my car and it is blowing hot air and there is something. First of all, tell me what the problem is and then tell me what I should do next. And then Claude is going to have that conversation.

Joe At Service Stories (18:11.544)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (18:28.738)
And it is going to be complete sentences. I’m probably going to be speaking to it like you’re describing. It is going to be a conversation back and forth. is the search and that, that experience is totally different from what I would have done five years ago.

Joe At Service Stories (18:28.91)
Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (18:36.27)
Hmm

Joe At Service Stories (18:40.226)
Yeah. Well, not only the user experience, but also the way you’re found, right? Like I said, the actual query language matters. So if you have a three sentence query, it has to figure out like, what are the kind of keywords or key phrases within that to then pull out. And then it runs what’s called a query fan out. The query fan out is not a brand new thing. It’s just becoming more robust across AI. And what that means is like,

Karin Conroy (18:45.732)
Right.

Joe At Service Stories (19:05.612)
instead of one specific keyword focus, which I kind of like, think about like spearfishing, like I’m going after this key set. Now they’re coming out and they’re taking two or four or 10 different, maybe keyword or key phrase sets and they’re searching all of those. And they likely are just grabbing Google results at this point in history. But, but, know, think about that. If, if, if now there’s three or four different searches and you’re number one in one search and you’re not listing the other, and you’re like number three in another, like, how does it tell who’s the best?

Is it the person who’s at the top of all of them, you know, or, the most commonly found in all of them, like all those things, we don’t know those answers yet. those are things that we’re all figuring out, but I kind of imagine where this is going to go is like the query fan out is kind of going to become like your new map pack. So if you’re, if you’re a local search business and you want to be ranked in a certain map area, you want to be in all these hotspots on the map. Well, now it’s like, I want to be in all these query fan outs, you know, I want to, I want to make sure that I’m available and that my keywords also match the way people talk.

Karin Conroy (19:39.407)
Right.

Karin Conroy (19:49.967)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (19:58.957)
Okay.

Joe At Service Stories (20:04.65)
Thank you.

Karin Conroy (20:04.664)
Yes. Okay. So that actually goes to the next thing that I was going to bring up. This idea of keyword driven content versus experience driven. So it sounds like this keyword fan out is a key element of that. Is that what you would say is sort of the main element or where would you say for a firm to start? Let’s say that this firm has been around for 10 plus years. They have been building out this blog content.

Joe At Service Stories (20:09.134)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (20:26.894)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (20:32.086)
very keyword heavy, very focused on old school SEO approaches and techniques. What should they change? What should they do in terms of thinking about focusing on their experiences and that natural language conversation? Should they change anything or should they start with different content? What should they do? What should they do first?

Joe At Service Stories (20:38.402)
Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (20:46.957)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (20:52.662)
I don’t think anybody needs to stop and like drop everything. think you just need to like, yeah, right. think, I think you need to just add additional to, right. think it’s it’s a new thing to, to weave into your workflow in an, addition to that, let’s also be honest. Like there are still people who, use traditional Google search. You’re, you’re definitely seeing different ways it’s, it’s presented to you, but they’re still using traditional keyword stuff. So that still matters. And for now, I think that’s a big deal, but.

Karin Conroy (20:55.736)
Yeah, stop, and roll.

Karin Conroy (21:02.49)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (21:12.281)
Of course.

Joe At Service Stories (21:20.43)
Like the paradigm shift from desktop to mobile, think over the next two or three years, we’re going to see that with AI. If you’re not optimized that way, you won’t write cause high. Number two, I think people need to start thinking about like, where do they get that kind of inspiration? Because, you know, you can go to Google search console. You can look at your, you know, terms that are coming through on Google ads and see these long phrases that are now coming through. If you look like how, what, why kind of filter on it, you’ll see like, Oh my gosh, someone found me for this like two paragraph long query.

Karin Conroy (21:49.456)
They had like a whole conversation with Claude or whatever it was. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (21:51.951)
Right. So, so you can start to see some of that stuff and, and base content around it. But like, how do you do that consistently over time? And, and if you’re trying to build a big fishnet, where do you get the volume from? Right. And that was kind of our core thesis at service stories is like, you know, we started in my family’s auto shop and we get customer concerns on, the ticket. Every, every time someone comes in, we hear them. We, do you, what do you smell and what do you feel? And I just thought,

Karin Conroy (21:59.14)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (22:16.578)
What if I could take that ticket and turn it into case studies, basically service stories is what we ended up calling it. Right. but I think the same thing could be said for legal. And I don’t, I don’t know everybody’s, you know, operational setup of software or whatnot for, for legal as well. But I mean, you could imagine connecting your Clio to an integration to where you’re, pulling your case matters and you have the insights from those case. Obviously needs to be anonymized, right. All that stuff. but imagine with me here for a second. So you have that or, maybe you have like, I don’t know your.

Karin Conroy (22:32.698)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (22:38.574)
with privacy and yeah, exactly, right.

Joe At Service Stories (22:46.124)
your sales force or whatever your CRM is where you have that customer conversations and you’re leading it. And then you want to get an abstract. You don’t need to tell like John and Susie sued each other. And this is why it’s like, what was the, you know, personal injury theme of that story and, what would be applicable to someone else and what was like their original concern when they came in? Can you reflect that in an H one that is now a question instead of a statement and then, and then answer the question within the content. Like.

Karin Conroy (23:09.07)
Yeah, yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (23:13.282)
Those are the things I think people need to start to figure out and scale.

Karin Conroy (23:15.874)
And that kind of leads into the next part is like where we’re kind of like integrating this idea of the stories and the humanity and the expertise into the SEO and the search and the technical side of it. And it’s, you know, it’s kind of like a brain, you know, you’ve got the left and the right side and you they’re doing different things and you have to have that balance or things are not going to work. Right. If your brain is like too heavily weighed on either side, it’s a problem. So

Joe At Service Stories (23:26.722)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (23:31.97)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (23:36.686)
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (23:45.84)
Where do we, so I see this idea of like bringing in the stories and the case studies and your client reviews. And that is really what AI wants to see because number one, it demonstrates your expertise. Number two, it’s real and unique to your firm. Like someone can’t, I mean, they could copy it, but they like, that would be weird. Um, and, um, but how do you do that in a more consistent broad scale approach that also

Joe At Service Stories (24:05.656)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:15.918)
checks the boxes on the technical side of it.

Joe At Service Stories (24:18.552)
Sure. I mean, without trying to promote my product too much, mean, that is what our thesis has been the whole time. It’s like, can you integrate these things in a privacy compliant way, grab your institutional data and transform it into case studies and stories that are abstracted enough to tell the real problem in a way that a hundred other people are going to search the same thing. Not so specific that you’re giving away, you know, operational. Sure. Sure.

Karin Conroy (24:20.825)
Yeah, no, do it. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:41.52)
Well, why don’t you explain what your software does? Because I feel like it’s not specific to the legal industry. just the kind of technical functionality of it totally applies in terms of like how to think about this.

Joe At Service Stories (24:51.779)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, at an abstract level, we connect to your management platforms of whatever type we pull in institutional knowledge that is not necessarily going to be generally available on the internet. You know, the reason why AI sources Reddit and Wikipedia and stuff is just because those are huge corpuses of data that they were immediately available to go crawl. They paid a lot of money for that too, but the future as we all add content to the internet now and things change, that will be different. Even in that study, like they mentioned,

the reason Wikipedia, so Wikipedia doesn’t rank super high. Their average rank was like position 24 on Google, for a lot of the topics they saw, but it was very often cited. And they said the reason why is because, basically Wikipedia has built up literally an encyclopedia of knowledge and they’re just topical authority, topical authority.

Karin Conroy (25:40.644)
That’s validated. it’s, yeah. And people, it’s, checked and double checked and you know, things that, yeah, well, in, I mean, in a lot of cases, it’s going to be more valid than your own personal blog where you can say whatever you want. And, know, like nobody can, kind of question and there’s no sort of administrative system that’s going to check and, you know, double check your sources and stuff. So,

Joe At Service Stories (25:48.75)
Hopefully. It is. Yeah, yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (25:57.356)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:06.916)
There’s a big piece of it though that I feel like both Wikipedia and Reddit where there’s this audience of validators basically.

Joe At Service Stories (26:14.988)
Well, and Reddit, the other thing too is Reddit was just, it’s searched, it’s found so much because it’s in conversational language. It’s a forum post. It’s humans writing human language, right? So that’s why they rank. Nobody’s doing that in blogs consistently. So like our thesis was what if we could turn your auto shop or your HVAC company or your law firm in this case into its own encyclopedia of the problems you’ve solved and the way you did it without exposing liability on the steps, the way you did it and all that kind of stuff. like,

Karin Conroy (26:23.48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (26:37.536)
Okay. Yes.

Karin Conroy (26:43.896)
Right. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (26:44.536)
got those stories out there and made you topical authority. So it’s not just personal injury. It’s like, I’ve, I’ve solved personal injury this way and that way in like 20 or 50 different ways that is ultimately called topical authority. That was good for traditional SEO. It’s, it’s great for modern AI search. And, and that was kind of our thesis is like, we’re going to build the system this way and help people do this. Because if you try to do that at that volume, with just people writing from scratch, it’s.

probably not financially responsible, to be honest with you. And so, yeah, we built a tool that helps you scale that out and it’s working super well right now. Early adopters have seen anywhere from like 150 to 400 % web traffic growth. And a lot of that, I believe, is because they’re cracking a code that no one else is doing it. Putting it in natural language queries with real problems, with real work. If Google came and said, did you do this work? They’d able to say, yep, here’s the ticket, you know?

Karin Conroy (27:14.682)
Yeah, right, yeah.

Karin Conroy (27:38.5)
Yeah, right. And to be clear, right now it’s mainly these service companies like auto shops and things like that, right? Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (27:44.16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don’t work with law firms yet. We’ve definitely been into, I mean, my nine years or so in privacy from all the data stuff I did with Google and beyond. I would be excited to work with a firm who wants to come talk to us, but no, we don’t do that right now. And we do have some steps to build in regards to compliance before I think we should do that at scale. But yeah.

Karin Conroy (27:56.112)
Yeah, sure.

Karin Conroy (28:05.168)
To me, it sounds like one of the big differentiating points that you’re discussing and what your software does is that it’s based in true stories that are unique to that company. And so where these conversations tend to go a lot in other AI episodes that I’ve done with other people is to talk a lot about this AI slop. And this is like the opposite of AI slop because it’s real and it’s true.

Joe At Service Stories (28:10.027)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (28:27.116)
Yep. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:34.798)
And it’s not just this kind of garbage that AI is sort of gathering from everywhere else and sort of slopping together, for lack of a better word. And it couldn’t be slopped because it’s unique to that company. And this is the real story that their clients have gone through and whatever. so that’s probably the main differentiator. Would you agree?

Joe At Service Stories (28:34.862)
That’s right.

Joe At Service Stories (28:42.092)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (28:54.862)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (28:59.958)
Yeah, I think, well, first of all, it could always put out slop. Let’s not, I’m not going to say, I’m not going to say we’re bulletproof, but we work really hard to make it not. And there’s a lot of context added to everything we do because of how you set up your company on our platform and whatnot. But yes, what you said, there is the core of it where, you know, any of these SEO tools that help you write content and do it at scale, pretty much they’re going to read your website. They’re going to say, here’s a hundred keywords you could own.

Karin Conroy (29:03.246)
Sure, of course. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (29:11.247)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (29:25.174)
If you don’t know the science of SEO keywords and like how to really choose and why it’s valuable, you’re just going to randomly pick one. Yeah, sounds good. Right. Pick one. Here’s 10 different articles. could write, pick one generates and it’s all guesses. Right. You feel so good. It’s, it’s a runner’s high and you haven’t even got off the ground. And so like with ours, you’re right. Like we’re taking real notes. Basically I’m taking all your shorthand and expanding it into a longer form. So it’s not bulletproof, but we, we find that our content is.

Karin Conroy (29:31.086)
Sounds good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Yep. And you’re like, sweet, look at that. I just saved a bunch of money. Yeah. Right.

Joe At Service Stories (29:55.03)
much more off the, off the printing press, ready to go. and, and like I said, we have our own processes to where it’s not just like, let me throw this in Claude and say, Claude, make a blog. there’s a real process to how we make it, you know, our, even with our AI systems, a blog will still take two to five minutes to process because we have all these steps to clean it up and make sure it’s, you know, not putting out any PII or things like that. and yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:13.594)
So many instructions and everything.

Right. Well, you said we’re not bulletproof and that kind of went to the next word that I was had like on the tip of my tongue was this idea of proof. And, you know, when it comes to this, you know, the title of the show is about human expertise and all of that stuff and how you prove it. And this is this is it. You’ve got these stories that show that you’ve done this before. So what other things does it do that are kind of opposite of

Joe At Service Stories (30:40.386)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (30:47.664)
kind of that garbage that you see out there that make it more focused and driven by their own expertise and kind of rooted in those real stories.

Joe At Service Stories (31:00.366)
Sure. Well, like feature functionality, also do beyond blogs, we do omnichannel. So if you want to, you know, marketing content for social or Google business profile, that’s there. But also, yeah, like one thing we have stood strong on so far is people have asked, well, I’m just standing up my content for the first time. Could you just make up a bunch of work that I will do in the future? And we don’t, we don’t do that. We could, I mean, it’d be really easy, right? But that’s where I’m kind of on the line of like, should we or not? Because

Karin Conroy (31:08.711)
okay.

Karin Conroy (31:20.624)
yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (31:29.858)
I actually believe we are gonna head towards a world where Google wants things to be more authenticatable. Anti-slop is a big push for them this year, not just because of what we get as their users, but also their business model is to crawl the data we put out. So, if we give them garbage, they’re gonna become garbage and they don’t want that.

Karin Conroy (31:44.6)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And then they’re going to downrank you generally because you’re kind of, you’re not authenticating yourself and your firm and all of that. I couldn’t agree more on this idea that Google’s looking for this authentic content, this knowing that you are who you say you are. I’ve talked about this a lot on the show, but these knowledge panels, are you familiar with like Google’s knowledge panels? Very few people I talk to or even know what these are. But when you,

Joe At Service Stories (32:02.59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (32:13.054)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (32:16.964)
I’m assuming you have a knowledge panel. I have a knowledge panel. When you Google either of our names, you’ll see that it basically, used to just be this little type, you know, little kind of box at the top and it would have my name and basically what Google is finding about me. And it’s basically Google saying, Hey, this is what we know about her. We verified it. And it’s usually external sources, podcasts I’ve been on, places I’ve written articles. It’s not my own language, me talking about myself and stuff that they can’t

Joe At Service Stories (32:19.5)
Yep. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (32:44.908)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Karin Conroy (32:46.914)
necessarily authenticate. But now these Google knowledge panels, when you see it, if you Google my name, it’s most of the page. So to me, that kind of signals that Google is finding them even more important. And it’s also, I talked to another AI guy a few weeks ago, it’s sort of signaling, showing you what’s happening behind the curtain on AI. Like this is sort of light that shows you, okay, this is what AI is probably

Joe At Service Stories (32:52.952)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (33:01.794)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (33:10.563)
No problem.

Karin Conroy (33:16.484)
finding on you also. And so I always encourage people to take a look and see what’s out there because it’s probably not what you really want. Like it probably needs some work and that’s a good place to start. But also it’s sort of this view into the future of where I really believe Google number one cares about and where it’s going. Like what can, what is everybody else saying about you?

Joe At Service Stories (33:17.24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:41.368)
So can we validate, you’re saying that you’re a legal marketing consultant. Can we validate that your name is aligned with that and other people are saying that too? And that’s, know, I’m kind of, this is a long-winded way of saying that I think that this is sort of where this content creation is going also. And what you’re describing, what can you say that other people are saying about you? What are these stories that your clients have told about working with you, these problems they had and whatever, that it’s not you just regurgitating like,

Joe At Service Stories (33:49.004)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (34:07.096)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (34:11.12)
this is where I went to law school and this is, you know, thing that I wrote in law school. Like, what are other people saying about you?

Joe At Service Stories (34:13.74)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. the third party sources are becoming really important right now. We’ll see like that study that I talked about earlier. They did find like domain authority doesn’t matter as much as it used to. It’s really your on page content that matters. the other side of it too, I don’t know if you saw this, but as of the end of January, a couple of big things happened in Google. they were granted a patent, which

Karin Conroy (34:29.764)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (34:42.39)
Everybody listening knows patent takes at least couple of years push through, right? They were granted a patent to where they can automatically generate an AI version of your page, like your whole website. If, if the customer is searching for you and they know that person better than you do, which they do for sure they do. They’ll grab parts of your website, automatically compile a landing page that they believe is exactly what that person wants to know about your company in the moment that they need it. Right.

Karin Conroy (35:10.238)
my gosh.

Joe At Service Stories (35:12.238)
That’s one step. So I think it’s going to change dramatically the way they display your website and how it’s maybe they’re not even landing on your website.

Karin Conroy (35:19.034)
That’s what I was gonna, my next question is, do you think that’ll be embedded within Google or that’ll be a separate click?

Joe At Service Stories (35:24.898)
I think this is going to be live result. and then you also, yeah. Like your knowledge panel, imagine your website is now right there.

Karin Conroy (35:27.792)
Okay.

Yeah, right, embedded sort of within Google zero click type thing. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (35:37.322)
Yeah. And then, they also launched web MCP in partnership with Microsoft and W3C. Web MCP is now this new way of building a website. It’s not so radically different, but I’m sure it will become more radically different over time. It’s effectively just building websites. So it’s easier for AI to crawl. That’s part of the work we’re doing too. we offer AI optimized websites and without getting too technical, we’re not going to rebuild your website. There’s a whole thing we do on the back end of it, but,

The way we see this going is how do we make your website more like components that can be taken, pieced apart and reused very easily, more crawlable, you know, like, um, the, way we process websites now, your, webpage might have, it might take 20 or 60,000 tokens for AI to crawl it with the videos, the JavaScript, all the things you need for human users. Bots don’t need, we compress it down to like 2000 tokens. So it’s, it’s cheaper for them. If you’re a auto parts, an auto parts store, right?

Karin Conroy (36:26.906)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:32.254)
interesting. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (36:34.478)
And you have two identical parts and one costs you a hundred dollars and one costs you 10. What are you going to buy? Right? Same with Google. They’re an information product company. If you can offer a product to them that is 60 to 90 % cheaper, but the same or better quality, what are they going to choose? Same with mobile optimizers, AIOCHMA. That’s where I think it’s going. Right. So there’s like some techniques around that too, that we’re testing out. We just very early on some of that stuff, but yeah, I do think there will be a big shift. Well.

Karin Conroy (36:39.502)
It’s obvious, right? Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:48.88)
They’re gonna go for it. Right.

Sure. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:59.322)
Sure. It feels like it’s relatively early on everything. I we’ve only been really, I mean, it sounds like you’ve been doing AI since 2016, which is farther back than anybody else I’ve talked to. Most people are at most a few years in. But I find that so interesting to kind of see the glimpses that you have on things that are kind of coming down the pipeline.

Joe At Service Stories (37:04.428)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (37:10.478)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (37:14.21)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (37:23.824)
What else do you think in terms of like, you know, we’ve talked a lot about these sort of stories, case studies, reviews, that kind of stuff. What else should a law firm do now that is a way to sort of demonstrate and provide proof of their sort of thought leadership as much as I hate that phrase and sort of their expertise?

Joe At Service Stories (37:33.805)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (37:42.776)
Mm-hmm.

That’s a good question. mean, I think like what we’re trying to do hits on all that stuff, basically, right? Because it’s literally like, you’re just printing content based on the organic serendipitous work that comes through your door. There’s no like in programmatic SEO, you can get flagged a lot because it looks really robotic and it’s, you’re just jamming keyword stuffing on. Um, but yeah, I think it really is, you know, being more on the case study side of things, writing it in natural language queries. Um,

Karin Conroy (37:50.33)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (38:13.358)
Getting in press, getting on podcasts, things like that for sure. You know, I think is a, is an X wave that a lot of people aren’t considering yet or.

Karin Conroy (38:16.526)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:20.91)
We started this program and once again, this isn’t meant to be an ad, but obviously I’m gonna mention it, where we’re doing these much more comprehensive marketing plans. because what I keep seeing is that, which this goes back to my grad school days, like 15 years ago, that you have to have this comprehensive marketing. You have to have your fingers in a lot of different things, including old school sort of offline.

Joe At Service Stories (38:25.506)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (38:39.458)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (38:44.45)
Yeah. Yep.

Karin Conroy (38:48.788)
networking and showing up, you know, to actually talk to humans, but also PR type things like PR is sort of like resurfacing in terms of it being a you’re borrowing the network of a larger brand. showing up on other websites, writing things, being on podcasts, the way you’re describing stuff, and then promoting it on your own site so that you get some nice backlinks, but creating a whole system around that.

Joe At Service Stories (38:56.248)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (39:04.397)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (39:09.836)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (39:16.782)
which once again, this is just these comprehensive marketing plans that I wrote papers on in grad school. you know, before we even started recording, we started talking about how like at the core, a lot of this really has not changed. It’s just kind of adding, polishing, adjusting some technical things here and there, but we’re still just doing marketing.

Joe At Service Stories (39:17.016)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (39:21.208)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (39:30.274)
Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (39:37.516)
Yeah. And for sure. The principles are still there. And I think just like I keep saying, when we went from desktop to mobile, you still kept the principles, but the tactics changed. Right. And I think that’s where we are today. And today, literally, I don’t think it’s that radical of a leap, but in the next two, three years, it may be dramatic. You know, so I think it’s definitely, if you’re not invested in AI search or trying to figure it out, I think now’s the best time to start. You don’t need to make it your primary marketing channel, but if you’re not

Karin Conroy (39:47.138)
Exactly, exactly.

Karin Conroy (39:55.076)
Sure. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (40:06.35)
trying at all, think you’re behind the times.

Karin Conroy (40:08.974)
Yep, yeah, yeah, you’re gonna fall behind. Somebody else is, and you’re gonna be chasing to catch up to them. Okay, so that’s a good transition to the book review section. I know you have a good one that kind of ties in with everything that we’ve been talking about. So Joe, what’s the book review that you are, the book that you are gonna recommend to the audience?

Joe At Service Stories (40:14.764)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (40:25.614)
Yeah. Um, one that I read recently that I was a big fan of, also saw him speak in Omaha was, uh, the science of scaling by Benjamin Hardy. If you haven’t read it, um, I highly recommend it. It also hit me at a moment in my career where like with our company, my, my partner, my business partner had left recently. And, um, I was trying to figure out like, okay, now I’ve got to pay the bills for everybody. And I don’t have this arm, you know, the second arm of my business.

Karin Conroy (40:31.298)
next.

Joe At Service Stories (40:52.216)
How do we do it? And the science of scaling and basically his thesis is like, whatever you want to achieve, try to take this, this goal that maybe is in your head to do in like a year or 10 years and say, I want to do it in 90 days or, or a month. And like, how would that change your thinking? It’s really a thought experiment, but once you get into it, you’re like, you know what, why, why wouldn’t I do it that way? Right. it’s, if you can make it work, then you know, you’re securing your bills sooner. You’re having a more stable company or you’re creating,

Karin Conroy (41:03.621)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (41:12.335)
Right.

Joe At Service Stories (41:21.398)
something that people want to be a part of ultimately. And I think that his, the book is really a mindset thing. That’s a great read.

Karin Conroy (41:28.974)
Nice. I find that decisions that are made fast and quick, and I’ve read enough books on this about just the decision process, they’re always way better. I have also experienced that pretty much every project that stalls and goes through like all these reviews and rethinking and they kind of take it back to the partners and they dissect and change every syllable of every word, they do not end up better.

Joe At Service Stories (41:34.55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (41:48.14)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (41:56.526)
Yep.

Karin Conroy (41:58.051)
So when you compress your decision process, it ends up with a better product that is just crisp and the right answer almost always. And when you apply that to kind of business principles, it just only makes sense that that would also end up with a better solution at the end. Awesome. Okay, so Joe, what, after someone listens to this episode and they’re sitting there thinking about all of this and kind of the future of this and…

Joe At Service Stories (42:01.998)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (42:17.464)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (42:22.84)
you

Karin Conroy (42:26.576)
how they should apply this to their firm and their plans and all of that. What’s the first thing you think they should actually sit down and do, a kind of actionable item kind of thing after they’ve listened to the episode?

Joe At Service Stories (42:37.966)
Sure. I would go to Claude or Chachipti, whatever your preferred is, and go into an incognito and see if your brand even shows up. Just see where you sit today. Try a few different queries. Maybe look into your, like I said, your client notes or whatever you have and find some of those initial thoughts, like what did the customer come to you for? And then go search that. See if you show up. Like start there. It doesn’t have to be crazy.

But yeah, if you’re not showing up and I think you need to start trying to figure it out because it’s not going away. This isn’t inevitable in the way that the internet moves and those who adopt early will have an outsize advantage.

Karin Conroy (43:10.594)
No. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:17.104)
So let’s say they go and they’re not really showing up. What’s the first thing after that that they should do in terms of whatever? What’s the first thing they should do?

Joe At Service Stories (43:24.654)
Sure. Well, would, I would take those same, I would take those same notes and then start to think about like, can I write a blog about that and how would I write it? And, and then try to get a couple up and see if it does anything for you. And for reference, um, even if you just put these up, um, the results are showing it’s like 30 to 90 days before you’re really seeing that pickup. Part of that is, you know, your, your blog or whatever you put up might not even rank for a little while. It might not be crawled or indexed secondarily, like, um,

Karin Conroy (43:32.654)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (43:53.262)
Then you have all these model transitions all the time, updates on them. So knowledge transitions, the way they search transitions. So yeah, the most popular they saw that study was like between 30 and 90 days. And after, if it’s two years older or older, you really need to start refreshing stuff.

Karin Conroy (44:07.676)
yeah. I find so much value in doing that also. Going back through old content. I’ve had this agency, I think this is either year 17 or 18, and I’ve got some stuff that I wrote way back in the beginning that I’m coming back to all of a sudden. like, wait a minute, I wrote this cool article, but it’s so old that nobody’s finding it anymore. So it’s like, let’s pull that stuff out. Like, let’s not reinvent the wheel. Let’s pull some of this stuff that really is evergreen, but it’s just not being found.

Joe At Service Stories (44:11.608)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (44:25.1)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Karin Conroy (44:36.432)
And kind of refine and update and like slap that back out there. Yeah.

Joe At Service Stories (44:40.098)
Yep. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s a great way to think about it. And, and it’s, it’s only going to do you better by, kind of trying to do it yourself and see what it takes and then, you know, look for solutions that might be able to make it easier for you.

Karin Conroy (44:48.516)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (44:52.144)
Yeah, you’re adding that human element that’s also very true and you know it better than AI bot will know it. And if you want to take it in there for like grammatical help or whatever to refine it, fine, but start with the human first and your own experience and then go from there. Yeah, awesome. Joe Toscano is the founder and CEO of Service Stories. There’s so much good stuff on, we will link to your blog, your whole website and the blog and all of that stuff.

Joe At Service Stories (45:03.16)
Mm-hmm.

Joe At Service Stories (45:07.7)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, absolutely.

Karin Conroy (45:19.952)
And there’s so much good content there that I think is just fascinating. I find this stuff endlessly interesting. So, so many resources there that we will link to on the show pages. But thank you so much for being here.

Joe At Service Stories (45:29.772)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And for those who do look us up, our blog, you’ll read it if you do, it’s primarily for auto shops at this point, but please reach out if you have questions, I’m happy to help you think about what it means for your law firm or whatever it may be. We may not provide the services today, but I’d be happy to learn with you.

Karin Conroy (45:40.016)
Sure.

Karin Conroy (45:50.926)
Yeah, think that’s the thing is like, don’t take it, you know, don’t dismiss just because it’s a different industry. There’s so much that we’re all learning here, like every day. And so take these thoughts and plus the combination of everything we’re learning combined with your years of knowledge in all of these different areas, I think it’s just fascinating to kind of see, you know, what you’re coming up with and where that goes. So thanks again.

Joe At Service Stories (46:01.08)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe At Service Stories (46:17.592)
Thank you. Yeah. And, and it’s also like to add a note on that, like it is a different industry, but a service business in regards to marketing SEO is a service business. Generally speaking, you need your services pages. need your location pages. You need your specialties and stuff. And like, you know, we’re not one to one, but like I said, I’m happy to talk with you. No charge learn because I want to learn to expand our knowledge and make ourselves more capable.

Karin Conroy (46:37.935)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (46:41.336)
Awesome. All right, sounds good. Thanks again.

Joe At Service Stories (46:43.714)
Yeah, thank you.