Law Firm Profit Margins, Stopping Embezzlement, & “Cash Lockup” with Kelley Brubaker

Jared Correia (00:00):
Hello everybody. We’ve got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I’m your host, Jared Correia. I’m the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, we’re diving into the hiring process once again and addressing why and how small firms get big firm lawyers to come work for them. In the interview, we’re featuring Kelley Brubaker, who is the owner of Profit, Scale, Thrive. In the counter program, we’re bringing back the internet pricing cavalcade of fun and danger. But now let’s discuss another law firm question with significant financial ramifications.

(00:45):
Solo and small firms have something of an inferiority complex when it comes to big firms and hiring. Whenever I talk to solo or small firm managing partners about hiring lawyers out of a mid-sized or large law firm, there’s some level of shock that I would even suggest such a thing. Am I crazy? Yes, but that’s besides the point. However, smaller firms have several competitive advantages over larger firms that they can access to entice those big law attorneys to take the step down, which in many cases is probably actually a step up for those potential hires in significant ways. When it comes to the solo and small firm hiring advantage, there are three distinct offerings you can lean on as a small firm owner when making your pitch. Number one, lifestyle. Every big law associate complains again about the grind. That’s because it’s a real thing.

(01:41):
While the money is for sure there, the life of an associate at a big law firm is a process of being actively grounded to a fine powder. The golden ring to grab for is that one day you might be a partner and then can draft off the work onto those lower on the firm totem pole in order to carve out a better lifestyle for yourself. Of course, there’s no guarantee that you actually make partner because it’s really someone else’s call and usually not based on any truly hard criteria. Now, if you’re a rainmaker, you can get there, of course. The question of how you find time to become a rainmaker in a law firm where you’re grinding billable hours and in which there’s not a ton of support as to how to drive new work. Well, that’s certainly an open question. Compare that with a small firm where the hourly requirements are usually lower and where there’s more freedom of movement about when, where, and how you do your work, especially while many larger law firms are insisting on lawyer staff returning to the office full-time or close to it and/or placing new restrictions on working from home, like having a camera shoved out your ass, as John Morgan likes to put it.

(02:52):
Plus fewer billable hours means more opportunities for marketing. And while most small firms don’t have a formalized partner track, there’s still an openness to bringing on new partners. And as always, the coin of the realm for partnership is steady and compulsive origination. But in a small firm, associates can still reach partnership level promotion without the backbreaking labor. Advantage number two, work style. One of the reasons that big firms are so daunting as workplaces for attorneys is that larger law firm billing models are still wedded to the hourly billing rate. The more hours you work, the more money you make, which is just fine if you’re sitting on top of a pile of workers like Yurdel the Turtle with a JD, but that’s less fine if you’re the one actually pulling the hours. Of course, every hour is not created equal. And so another issue with working at a larger law firm is that the more experienced attorneys end up being the ones who sop up most of the media assignments like a fine stew.

(03:55):
At smaller firms, there tends to be more challenging work to go around, which can be passed along to new hires who might currently feel like they’re not being challenged enough buried in the hierarchy at a larger firm. Additionally, as part of that subterranean existence, most of the face-to-face contact with clients is also left for the big dogs. So as a small firm owner, you can offer new hires the option for more client contact, which can also lead to future referrals and origination bonuses potentially, including the ability to run entire cases more or less solo. Advantage number three, incentives. One of the main reasons attorneys stay in large practices despite the salt mine style dynamics is the end of the year incentives. The reason you bill all those hours in big law is so that you can access your bonus at the end of the year, and that’s the cycle that traps a lot of folks.

(04:50):
That bonus is just an outrageous dopamine hit. You feel so good getting it that it makes it easier to dive back onto that hamster wheel again. It feels so good when it hits your lips. The next time you look up, it’s May and you’re right back to waiting for that bonus to hit again at the end of the next year, like crack. So as the owner of a small law practice, you can still offer bonuses related to billable hours, but you can also have those kick in sooner, both in terms of when they start, maybe at 1200 hours rather than 1500 or 1800. And with respect to when they’re paid, pay quarterly bonuses instead of annual ones. Plus you have an opportunity to create additional incentives that larger law firms usually don’t offer and maybe haven’t even ever thought of offering, like origination bonuses that can actually be achieved due to client face time as well as additional time being made available for marketing and efficiency bonuses, in part because smaller firms don’t lean on hourly billing as much and are more willing to experiment with alternative billing models.

(05:58):
Better and more disparate incentives paid out in a more timely fashion are another compelling reason to leave big law for small. So if you own a small law firm and you’re looking to grow your staff, don’t just give up on hiring associates from your larger competitors before you even start looking at them. You are the small fish in the big pond with the bigger fish, sure, but you’re also quick, life and can have smart your competitors. You just need to figure out how to bait the hook. Speaking of which, wouldn’t you like to make more money? How’s that for hook? Then stick around as we’ll be delving into effective financial management strategies for law firms with the one and only Kelley Brubaker of Profit, Scale, Thrive. She’s next. We’re all thriving now. Well, I’ve effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast, so I’m just going to clean the wax out of my ears with some hydrogen peroxide so I can hear Kelley.

(07:05):
Oh, fuck it. I’ll just ask her to speak up. Let’s introduce our next guest.

Kelley Brubaker (07:10):
Hello. Can you hear me now?

Jared Correia (07:12):
It’s only the late night podcast, everyone. Who’s yelling in the background? It’s Kelley, Kelley Brubaker, who’s the owner of –

Kelley Brubaker (07:20):
Hi everybody.

Jared Correia (07:21):
Profit Scale Thrive. You can do all those things if you work with

Kelley Brubaker (07:26):
Kelley.

Jared Correia (07:26):
I know. Welcome to the show, Kelley. How are you?

Kelley Brubaker (07:28):
Thanks, Jared. It’s good. I feel like I just saw you and I did. I just saw you two weeks ago in Vegas. Maybe it was three weeks ago. My time’s off. But yeah, absolutely. No, I’m excited to be here. Oh,

Jared Correia (07:41):
You and me both. Do you want to tell people about why we were in Vegas? They might be interested

Kelley Brubaker (07:46):
To know. Absolutely. So we were in Vegas for Kaleidoscope, which is the user conference for LawPay, MyCase, Casepeer, DocketWise, and I think officially, but on the sly CPA charge. So I don’t think there were… I did meet one other CPA. I do admit that. Might

Jared Correia (08:04):
Have edited that out.

Kelley Brubaker (08:06):
Right?

Jared Correia (08:08):
Also collectively known as 80 AM, the software company.

Kelley Brubaker (08:10):
Correct.

Jared Correia (08:11):
Exactly. Not the time on the clock, just in case you’re

Kelley Brubaker (08:14):
Wondering. No. Yeah. 80 AM. So they’ve been good to us, which is how we met. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, they had, gosh, that’s probably been two years ago that they were doing every couple months they were doing different webinars that included some CLE segment to it. Yeah. We did a whole thing. Yeah, down in Austin. Right.

Jared Correia (08:37):
Kelley, first question I wanted to ask you. Yeah. Kelley with the extra E, is that really necessary?

Kelley Brubaker (08:44):
I know. Okay, so here’s the deal. That actually, thankfully, is the craziest my parents got in the 70s, which just irritated me as a child because we’d go on vacation. Second E

Jared Correia (08:59):
Stands for LSD. Anyway, go on, please.

Kelley Brubaker (09:03):
We’d go on vacation and I want to get a key chain or a picture frame that has my name on it, but no, nobody spells Kelley with an E-Y. So it was horrible.

Jared Correia (09:13):
I know.

Kelley Brubaker (09:13):
Horrible growing up, horrible. But my parents joke around that my… So my maiden name is Nana, and so they joke around my name could have been Rosanna, Hannah, Dana, Nana. So I’ll take Kelley with an E every day.

Jared Correia (09:27):
Not a lot of good choices there. Do you remember the Simpsons episode when they went to Itchy and Scratchy Land and they can’t find the Bart license plate? No. And they have 30 borts and he’s like, “No one’s named Bort.” And then a mom comes by with this kid and it’s like, “Come Bort.”

Kelley Brubaker (09:48):
Right. Oh, totally. Yeah. So it was definitely upsetting as a kid, but now we live in the 21st century where everything’s just custom printed anything. But I made sure my kids… I had a whole notebook going. I have two daughters and both of them, I’m like, “You have to have

Jared Correia (10:05):
Spell names.”

Kelley Brubaker (10:06):
Yes. They have to be pronounced how they’re spelled phonetically and no weird spelling. And my youngest loves her name, Samantha. She goes by Sammy. My oldest is Jessica. She hates it. She goes by Jay, J-A-Y. That’s

Jared Correia (10:23):
Because Jessica’s an 80s name.

Kelley Brubaker (10:25):
Yeah. She’s like, “I absolutely hate it.” I’m like, “I don’t know what to tell you, dude. Sorry.”

Jared Correia (10:32):
I was watching a documentary the other day and one of the people’s names was Cynde, but it was spelled C-Y-N-D-E, which is just like, “Come the fuck on.That’s ridiculous.”

Kelley Brubaker (10:43):
Exactly. What were you thinking?

Jared Correia (10:47):
Profit Scale Thrive.

Kelley Brubaker (10:49):
Yeah.

Jared Correia (10:49):
You’ve been running this business for two decades.

Kelley Brubaker (10:53):
Forever. Yeah, 21 years and a couple of weeks.

Jared Correia (10:56):
Wow, congratulations. It’s a long time. Let’s spin this out a little bit. Why did you start in the first place? Because you didn’t start a business right out of school. You worked for somebody else for a little bit.

Kelley Brubaker (11:06):
Oh yeah. I started out of college, started at KPMG, which is Big Four, which is comparable to Big Law. And it was the grind, just the same. So just as the grind you have in Big Law, that’s the grind we’ve got in Big Four. And I had every intention. I was going to be an office managing partner one day and got almost 10 years in, realized partner was just not going to happen and said, “I’m just done. I’ve had enough and left.” Because

Jared Correia (11:35):
You were like, “This blows. I don’t want to spend my life doing this.”

Kelley Brubaker (11:39):
Oh my God, it was so much work. It was so much work. It was not worth it. And you really didn’t make good money until you made partner. So I’m like, “I could handle the grind and not being paid as what I should if I’m going to make partner someday.” And then when someday was that far off 10,000 miles away, I’m just done, done, done,

Jared Correia (11:59):
Done.

Kelley Brubaker (12:00):
Good for you. Yeah. So I left there and decided what am I going to do next? I ended up being CFO at a really small publicly traded bank, which I thought, oh, now I’m fine. It’s not the same as a partner in a CPA firm, but comparable CFO in a public traded bank. Kind of like the

Jared Correia (12:20):
Equivalent of inside counsel for a lawyer. Exactly. It

Kelley Brubaker (12:24):
Was. Which

Jared Correia (12:24):
I think for a lot of attorneys, it’s like that’s the dream job.

Kelley Brubaker (12:28):
Oh, and this should have been so cushy. I had staff and it was small, but it wasn’t too small. And then the publicly traded part was great because I had the SEC filing, so I had to stay up to date on all the regs and all that stuff.

Jared Correia (12:44):
How’d you fuck it up?

Kelley Brubaker (12:45):
Oh God, because I worked for the biggest asshole ever. The one thing that I did not figure or include in my analysis was the CEO, and he was just the biggest prick and I couldn’t… I was just done. I was there a year. I walked in one day, I had no job. I’m like, “Dude, I’m just done. I can’t deal with you anymore.” And he’s like, “I see you.

Jared Correia (13:08):
I’m out.”

Kelley Brubaker (13:09):
And he wasn’t fond of me either. He was like, “Okay, I’ll pay you two weeks. You just go ahead and go home.” Okay. I packed up my stuff. I was out of there. So I went to one more bank. It did. At the time, it was devastating because I thought I really had shit figured out and then ended up calling back all of my audit clients and said, “Okay guys, I’m available. Who wants me?” And one of my biggest audit clients came back and said, “Okay, the CFO is buried. He’s in meetings all day long and you would be perfect.” So I was mini CFO and literally he’d go into a meeting, take a handful of notes, rip off the page out of the notebook, hand it to me, off to the next meeting, go fix these things. Whatever the notes are, go do it.

(13:56):
I did that for two years. And it was actually a nice job, but I got pissed about stupid shit. You had to be at your desk Monday through Friday, 8:30 to 5:00, could not come in late, could not leave early. I could take it to our lunch as long as nobody was missing me, but had to be there. I’m like, “You know what? This sucks.” I used to ride a Harley. I was a really bad chick back in the day, and I was getting mad in the summer. You were rolling

Jared Correia (14:22):
Up to the bank in a Harley? Oh,

Kelley Brubaker (14:24):
Totally. Hell yeah. Badass. Wow. And so I would get mad because my friends, all the people I rode with all worked for shift jobs, so they were all done at 3:00 and I’d be getting text messages. They’re out on the open road. Where are you? Yeah. And they’re like, “Where are you?” And I’m like, “I’m still at work for two more hours.” So I finally just said, “There’s got to be a better way.” It was a weird… Just things lined up and I’m like, “You know what? I’m just done.” And started my accounting firm from the bank. I actually worked… I hired a graphic designer because you know all the bullshit things. You got to have the right logo. Oh my God. I laugh at all this shit now.

Jared Correia (15:06):
I love logos. I still obsess with the logos.

Kelley Brubaker (15:09):
I loved my first logo. First one was amazing. Loved it, loved it. But I hired a graphic designer and I didn’t have a color printer at home, but there was a color printer at work at the bank. So I would have to stay late – I

Jared Correia (15:21):
Love

Kelley Brubaker (15:22):
It. Until everybody left. And I would just casually, yep, casually walk, run to the printer, grab off my little graphics. Oh my God. Just going

Jared Correia (15:33):
To work on the printer here for a second.

Kelley Brubaker (15:36):
Don’t

Jared Correia (15:36):
Worry about me.

Kelley Brubaker (15:37):
Don’t pay attention. Yeah, don’t look over there at the guy behind the curtain. It’s fine. That’s tremendous. I started, so had no clue what I was doing starting a business. And so I would go to the library and I would get out the books, the dummy series, how to start a business for dummies, and would just take notes. So I took the bus to work because that was 45 minutes and I could just read and write. So I’d had a little notepad. I’m like, “Oh, write that. Oh yeah, yeah. I need to do that.” And then at night I’d come home. Okay, what were the things I took notes on today? I got to go do that. It was crazy.

Jared Correia (16:13):
I mean, I took the bus to law school for a year. Did you really? It may have been the most productive I’ve ever been in my entire life.

Kelley Brubaker (16:19):
Because you can sit and read.

Jared Correia (16:20):
Just working on the bus. Yep.

Kelley Brubaker (16:22):
Yep. All

Jared Correia (16:23):
Right. So you started this business. Yeah. Did you decide that you wanted to work with attorneys from the outstead? Did you fall into that?

Kelley Brubaker (16:33):
No. Oh, I totally fell into it. Yeah. So when I started, I literally, and I tell people this all the time, all the stupid shit people tell you now don’t do, I did all of it. All of it. Because my parents, my dad was a fireman, my mom worked part-time retail. If you

Jared Correia (16:49):
Don’t have family members who’ve run businesses, you got to figure your shit out on your own. It’s not easy

Kelley Brubaker (16:53):
To do. Oh, they were horrified. They’re like, “What?” I’m like, “I’m not working for the man

Jared Correia (16:57):
Anymore.” They were like, “Get a real job.”

Kelley Brubaker (16:58):
Yeah, and they’re like, “Go get a job.” So they were horrified and nobody in my life… I had a couple friends who had spouses who owned businesses, but my friends were CPAs, and so their spouses were CPAs, and oh, those are guarded secrets. We can’t tell people what we do or how we did it. If I’m sort of figure it out – I feel like it’s a little

Jared Correia (17:21):
Bit of a club, right?

Kelley Brubaker (17:23):
It is. We kind of have to focus before you get into it. It was horrible. Yeah. And this is back… So I started my firm in 2005, and now YouTube is around, but nothing near. It was all entertainment. It was not like it is now. Early days

Jared Correia (17:36):
Of YouTube.

Kelley Brubaker (17:37):
Yes, early days. And I mean, Mr. Beast hadn’t been on YouTube yet. We’re still talking old school stuff. And so yes, it was just tough. And so it took a really long time, and I made every stupid mistake. Started off, I hired a CPA. She did all the tax work. I hired a couple other people. They did bookkeeping and payroll. Life was good the first couple of years, and then it got to the point, if you were willing to pay me money, I was willing to help you. I’ll just figure it out. The one thing that I think is amazing that attorneys, most attorneys are amazing at this, they know to stay in their lane. If you do bankruptcy and somebody comes to you with personal injury or like, screw you, no. But I have a friend, CPAs are not that way. CPAs are like, “Oh, 1031 exchange?

(18:28):
Sure. Come on in. I have no clue. I’ll figure it out.” CPAs are getting better.

Jared Correia (18:35):
I don’t want to use… Everybody does this when they start a business, kind of thrashing around. Oh,

Kelley Brubaker (18:41):
Totally. It was so crazy. And so I got to a point where it was frustrating, and then I picked up an attorney who actually sublet an office because he worked from home, and this is back maybe 2008, 2009, and he worked from home, but he needed a place to meet clients, and I had an extra space in my office. And so he and I started working together, and then he introduces me to another attorney. And then before you know it, I just have a whole bunch of attorneys, and I still didn’t niche into the legal world until within the last 10 years. I had a business coach that I was –

Jared Correia (19:19):
What made you do it? The business coach was like, “You should do this?” Yeah.

Kelley Brubaker (19:23):
Yeah. Well, her thing was, my complaint to her was, “Oh my God, I post all the time on Facebook. Nobody responds to me.” And she’s like, “Girl, because when you talk to everybody, you talk to no one.” And I’m like, “No, you’re going to make me niche.” And she goes, “Yes, it’s going to be uncomfortable, but you’re going to do it and we’re going to have fun and it’ll be fine.” I went through all the things, because at the time I had a dog kennel, a retail store, a print shop, a fashion designer, an online store. I had whiplash from the conversations because what I could tell one client… Yeah, it’s a lot. I knew the accounting rules, but somebody would come in and they would ask me a question. I’m like, “Oh, I know the accounting rules. I know how the tax is going to work.” But everyone had just slight nuances that I couldn’t shift fast enough and remember all the different KPIs and all the crazy things.

(20:17):
And so narrowed it down, kept narrowing it. I was like, “Right away, we’re getting rid of retail manufacturing. I’m not doing any of that. It’s just not my forte.” So stuck in with professional services. And as I looked at my client list, I’m like, “Oh my God, 80% of my clients are law firms.” And she’s like, “You’re just done. Quit looking.” And it changed. I can serve clients so much better now because I’m so ingrained in the industry that it’s… And I think my fear for a long time was, well, because prior to COVID, everybody was local. I only had local clients, and so I was afraid that if I was… Right. If I had these clients, how far apart did my clients have to be so that they weren’t competitors? I didn’t want anybody to think that, which I don’t share information. I’ll share ideas between clients, but obviously I’m not saying, “Hey, I’ve got client A, B, C over here doing this.” But yeah, COVID really opened up the world because now I have clients coast to coast, which is amazing.

(21:18):
Yeah, that’s tremendous. It’s a good gig. Yeah.

Jared Correia (21:21):
Okay. So everyone’s using the fractional terminology. I know. I kind of feel like you’ve been… Haven’t you been doing that though before it was cool? Yeah. That’s what I thought. Well,

Kelley Brubaker (21:34):
That’s the thing. Oh, yeah. I don’t know a better way to say it. So I’ve actually kind of slightly dropped the fractional part. I do refer to it, but CFO –

Jared Correia (21:46):
What do you call it instead?

Kelley Brubaker (21:48):
Well, law firm CFO or CFO for law firms. It’s really weird to me because there’s just gut reactions to fractional and you either love it or you hate it.

Jared Correia (22:02):
Good or bad, I think. Yeah, right.

Kelley Brubaker (22:04):
Right. That’s what I’m saying. And I’ll have people that are like, “Oh, you’re a fractional CFO.” There’s a sub on Reddit that I think it’s just called CFO. And when you’re in there, the real CFOs of Fortune 500 companies are like, “Oh yeah, you fractional people need to go away.” Okay, get over yourself. I do the same shit.

Jared Correia (22:25):
Red is a great place. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So we can dispense with that. Let’s get into some real shit. I think that law firms are generally over-concerned with revenue.

Kelley Brubaker (22:41):
Oh, totally.

Jared Correia (22:42):
I can explain what I mean by that. You agree?

Kelley Brubaker (22:43):
Yes. Okay. Yeah, I do agree, but go ahead. Why? So

Jared Correia (22:48):
You tell me. I’ll do my little song and dance just so people know. Go ahead.

Kelley Brubaker (22:51):
Go ahead.

Jared Correia (22:51):
I feel like lawyers are always like, “Let me get that top line revenue going, that’s the sauce.” But then they don’t even look at profit or any other metric at all, which is foolish. And that’s why you run into law firms that are running a 4% profit margin. Anyway, go.

Kelley Brubaker (23:05):
It’s crazy. Well, that’s the thing. Everybody… And I admit, if people ask me my goals, it’s usually top line revenue, but I have mentally behind that. I know if I hit a certain revenue, I know what that means in my bank account. So I do have a revenue goal, but it’s more thought out than just saying

Jared Correia (23:24):
X. I think it’s okay to have revenue goals, but I don’t think it’s just like, this is the only thing I care about, which I think a lot of attorneys are like, “Revenue, it’s on.”

Kelley Brubaker (23:33):
Yeah, because so often I will see, I’ll have a client come in, we’ll start talking, and they’re like, “Yeah, I was at one million, now I’m at two million,” or, “I went from two million to four million.” And I’m like, “Oh, that’s awesome.” And they’re like, “No, it’s not awesome.” They’re like,

Jared Correia (23:49):
“No, it’s not awesome.” Yes.

Kelley Brubaker (23:50):
Because when I went from two million to four million, I thought that I would have $2 million. Then the extra two million I thought would go in the bank. I don’t. I’m like, “Oh, I know.” So that’s the problem with it. It’s great to have a revenue goal as long as you understand what goes behind it, because the more revenue means you have more clients, unless you’re PI and you hit a grand slam case that you’re not doing that once you’re – Which

Jared Correia (24:15):
Is a lottery ticket yet.

Kelley Brubaker (24:17):
It is. It is. I mean, it happens, but it’s not every year. But you’re right. I think what happens, there’s a whole psychology to it. And so I think as you start to see the money coming in, you start to relax a little bit and you’re like, “Oh, I can breathe easy. I was struggling to make payroll and rent, and now I easily wrote the payroll checks and easily wrote the rent check, and all is better.” And then I think that mentally just gets to a point where you’re like, “Oh, paralegal comes in, can I sign up for Harvey? Sure. We got the money.” And before you know it –

Jared Correia (24:52):
Why not?

Kelley Brubaker (24:55):
It’s just this ripple effect that you feel like you have more money and you do, but not necessarily protecting it. And so more money’s going out the door. Yeah.

Jared Correia (25:06):
I also feel like the other species is, I tell people this all the time, it’s easy to spend a fuck ton of money and make a fuck ton of money. What is hard to do is to settle on a viable profit margin for your business.

Kelley Brubaker (25:19):
Yeah, it is. So I will talk to clients. How I work with clients, I’m not spitting back, “Here’s your P&L, ask me any question, wink, wink.” It’s, “Here, I’m going to take your actual numbers month by month over the last two years, and I’m going to put them into a graph.” And why that matters is now you start to see… So if I look at your revenue for the last two years, month by month, and I’ll say, “Hey, so why in August of 2005 did your revenue drop to nothing?” “Oh, because my parent got sick. We had to move them to our house. That wasn’t working. Six weeks later, we finally got them into a nursing home. So yeah, I just didn’t have time to bill, which means clients couldn’t pay me. “I’m like,” Okay, well, let’s not do that again, obviously, because we just don’t want to live through that experience again.

(26:15):
But then the flip side is, Hey, you had an amazing month. What happened there? Can we make that repeat? “So I look at it that way, but one of the graphs that I do, it’s called rule of thirds, and it’s not a novel. For the longest time, I felt like this glorious, the halo came out and the sun like,” Ah, “all the angels are singing because I’m like,” Oh my God, I just realized you should spend about a third of your revenue on people, a third of your revenue on overhead, and then a third of your revenue would be profit. This is awesome. “And then somebody was like,” Yeah, that’s so-and-so, some other guy published that decades ago.

Jared Correia (26:51):
I was thinking of the rule of three from American Pie, but we can keep it to financial management.

Kelley Brubaker (26:57):
We’ll keep it here. Yeah. But yeah, so I try to do rule of thirds to try to keep people in line with their spending, making sure that we’re spending appropriately.

Jared Correia (27:07):
Well, yeah, I think that’s interesting that you put it that way, because I think it’s not always overspending. Sometimes it’s spending enough on the other stuff, right?

Kelley Brubaker (27:17):
Right, right.

Jared Correia (27:18):
Okay. So let me ask, okay, what do you think… You’ve mentioned some trend analysis, which I think is great. You mentioned the reporting piece of it. Do you have KPIs metrics? I do.

Kelley Brubaker (27:33):
Oh yeah.

Jared Correia (27:35):
Don’t give away the farm, but what do you think are some of the important ones that lawyers need to be thinking about that they’re not always thinking about? And just keep some for yourself so people have to hire you.

Kelley Brubaker (27:46):
Oh, yeah. Well, there’s one that my go-to one, not necessarily if you’re contingent, but if you bill either flat fee or hourly, it’s called cash lockup, and it’s the concept. And I initially didn’t like, and this one, I will admit, I did not come up with this. I read it, but I read about it and I didn’t like what it was called, but then I’m like, oh my God, this is actually genius because it’s for lawyers because cash lockup. So if you have clients that are in jail, I’m just going to make that analogy, your cash is in jail, you can’t get into it and it can’t get out. And what that means, it’s the amount of money in your unbilled WIP. So you have all your time tickets, you’ve just not billed them yet, and then you’ve got that’s $1 amount, and add it to how much have you billed but not yet collected.

(28:37):
So your unpaid bills or your accounts receivable, those two things added together. So you’ve done the work,

(28:42):
Not billed it, billed the work, haven’t collected it, those two things together. And when you add that together, that’s your cash lockup. That’s how much cash is rightfully yours, but you don’t have access to it. It’s in jail, it’s locked up, and you need to figure out how to break that code to get your cash into your bank account. That is my go-to love, and it still works for contingent, but it’s not as effective because with contingent, there’s just so many other things going on that you can’t control. That’s a good one. But you can definitely bill. You can bill your whip. You don’t have to wait every month. You can bill faster. You don’t have to wait until the end of the month and then collect, collect, collect because nobody does the collections. I know, I know. But that is my go-to. I hate collections.

(29:24):
I absolutely despise it.

Jared Correia (29:25):
Everyone hates collections.

Kelley Brubaker (29:27):
I know. Got to get that money though. Get that back. Have your paralegal do it. Have somebody else in your office do it. Anybody else can do it. You don’t have to do it yourself. No. But that is my all-time favorite. I love that metric. That’s great. Because it’s rightfully work that you did. You just need to get the money in your bank. So that is my favorite one, for sure.

Jared Correia (29:50):
Any others you like? Number two, number three?

Kelley Brubaker (29:54):
I mean, two and three, now we’re talking realization because I want people to understand that And people always like, oh, I get the eye roll. I don’t want to calculate my realization, whether it’s billable or collected because you have to sit and do math. And I get that part, but I’ll do it for you. I’ll do the math for you. Because I want people to understand that the impact, you’re reviewing your bills and you’re like, oh, there’s no way that that time ticket was two hours. We’re going to take it down to 1.4. Well, that 0.6 you wrote off, that means something. And I don’t think looking bill after bill after bill, I don’t think it always adds up in your head. Take that 0.6 and if that was a billable rate of $400 an hour, now start compounding that over… If you write down one time ticket on every invoice, you could have just left $10,000 that people worked and you’re not going to bill it.

(30:52):
And that compounds pretty quickly over time. So there’s easy things that you do within your firm to just capture the money that’s already there that’s rightfully yours to collect because you’re paying the staff time.

Jared Correia (31:05):
Yeah, I like this concept of taking the money that you’re owed effectively faster.

Kelley Brubaker (31:11):
Yeah. Faster. Yes.

Jared Correia (31:14):
Let’s drag off of that a little bit. So how do you think about attributing revenue to non-billers? Because I think this is something of an issue in law firms when they’re thinking of incentives, compensation models, it’s easy to be like, “This person billed X amount of money for me.” But some of the stuff that non-billers do is kind of intangible.

Kelley Brubaker (31:37):
It is. And that’s the hard thing. So I’ve had clients where paralegals can be partially billable, but they don’t have billable goals. It depends on what they’re doing, whether it’s billable. But legal secretaries, we’re not billing their time. You have other admin, we’re not billing their time. And I understand, and I’m okay with that, but there needs to be a better way to capture. So if you have a legal secretary, what is the work they’re actually doing for you? Because they’re doing it, which means you don’t have a paralegal doing it, which means you don’t have an attorney doing it. And so there is tangible, they’re worth it. It definitely becomes harder because they’re not tracking. I’ve had clients where I’ve convinced them, I’m like, “You need everybody in the firm to be tracking time.”

Jared Correia (32:24):
I mean, ideally that’s the

Kelley Brubaker (32:25):
Best

Jared Correia (32:25):
Scenario.

Kelley Brubaker (32:26):
It is. And I hate, I hate, hate, hate. I love Kimberly Bennett. We’re all about the subscriptions. I love it. I hate tracking time, but at some point you have to… And here’s what I do in my firm though, because I mean I have accountants, I have bookkeepers who work for me. While I do all the CFO level work, I have people who help me with bookkeeping and help me with some data analyst stuff. All of my stuff is billed fixed fee, unless it’s a special project, but that’s a whole other thing. But I will go one week at a time and we do it a couple times a year where I’m like, okay, this is the week from Sunday through Saturday. We need to track all the things we’re doing by client, by task. I need to understand where you’re spending your time. And I only do it one week at a time and then start to make inferences out of that information.

(33:18):
I’m not taking the time to track time every week because I can’t. Shoot me. I don’t want to do it.

Jared Correia (33:26):
I get it. That is helpful, I think. Okay, you talk about this a lot on social media, financial controls. Traditionally law firms have been hotbeds for embezzlement because lawyers don’t pay attention to their staff and what they’re doing. So how do you guard against that as a law firm owner, especially in a smaller firm where you’re doing a lot of work yourself?

Kelley Brubaker (33:56):
It’s hard. It’s hard. I’m not going to lie. I try on social media to make it sound easy, but personally I just know how hard it is. The hard thing is you go from – Well,

Jared Correia (34:06):
You can tell us the real shit.This is not a social media post. Tell me how hard it is.

Kelley Brubaker (34:10):
Oh yeah, really. I mean, I’ve seen it… Well, let me just go back to when I started my career in big four. I was an auditor. I audited banks and I was probably maybe third year and I met a client January, so it’s busy season, just trying to get through all the work, tons of things going on. And we’re reconciling, we’re reviewing a cash account. Now at a bank, they’ve got 10 million bank accounts of their own in addition to all the other into the client stuff. And there was one account specific to the ATM at the main branch, and we were doing the work at the main branch and we’re looking at this reconciliation. And while all the numbers made sense, the amount of reconciling items… So ATM should be fixed every day, maybe in two or three days, because we’re talking mid to late 90s.

(35:07):
And so yes, you’re going to always have something that’s an issue, but you should be able to fix it within the next couple of days. And we were looking and this wreck had all these different… These balances and these notes look really weird, very ambiguous notes. And we go over to the guy who does that reconciliation and he was being really shady and we’re like, “I’m not sure what’s going on here.” Okay. Now this is back in the day, so late ’90s where the ATMs, we had to make a deposit, you had an envelope, everything had to happen in an envelope, which pissed me off. I hated this. And so this guy figured out, “Oh, if I go and drive my car, so I go after work, I get in my car, I drive around through the drive-up ATM, I’m going to take a blank envelope, but when I put it into the ATM, I’m going to type in $500.” The computer deposits magically $500 into his bank account because the ATM just assumes – I

Jared Correia (36:07):
Missed out on that scam. Damn it.

Kelley Brubaker (36:09):
Oh, totally. Now he had been doing this for months and it was like $30,000. So at first we weren’t exactly sure what was going on. We knew something was wrong, didn’t know what was going on. In the meantime, it’s lunchtime. He leaves. He doesn’t come back.

Jared Correia (36:27):
I’m not a DB Cooper. Peace, bitches.

Kelley Brubaker (36:29):
Exactly. Exactly. Peace out, man. I’m out of here. So APB goes out for this guy. Somehow the cops find him at his house. He realized how he could rip this off and it all comes down to financial controls. So while the computer was posting to his account what he typed in at the ATM, he was the guy that was the person trying to justify that the amount in the bank and in the ATM was correct. And he was saying it was, and it wasn’t. He wouldn’t

Jared Correia (37:01):
Lie. So it had to move up a level before it was discovered. Yeah.

Kelley Brubaker (37:04):
Exactly.

Jared Correia (37:06):
I think that’s relevant for a law firm for sure.

Kelley Brubaker (37:08):
And it is, but he knew his boss was so overwhelmed and busy. It was coming up to year end, it was Christmas, it was holidays, so many things going on. People were already stressed because the auditors are coming in. It was just a lot of things going on at the same time, but he would just go in and do these deposits and rip off the bank. So those were things that made me aware of, oh my gosh, what is happening? Things can happen. So about a year ago, well, a couple years ago, I had an attorney call me that wasn’t a client of mine at the time. I ended up working with her for a short time, and she had an executive assistant who had access to her Amazon account.

(37:51):
Now that’s not why she called me. She called me because, oh my gosh, why am I billing so much money and I never have money in my bank account? What is going on? And so I start looking through things and fraud was not even on the… That wasn’t even a consideration. I though just making bad decisions, maybe you’re confusing what you bill versus what you collect. I don’t know. But in going through it, I’m like, “You know you spent like a hundred grand at Amazon?” Which every law firm has at least one or two Amazon purchases, paper, pens, whatever, but $100,000. And we’re talking, I think at the time it was her and I think she had a part-time associate and then a paralegal. I’m like, “How are you spending $100,000 at Amazon? Don’t pull all of them, but pull some of those invoices.” Well, here, her executive assistant had realized, “Hey, I have the keys to the kingdom, and oh, by the way, I need a cat bed and I need…” Whatever the things were, I need all these things

Jared Correia (38:50):
At home. Several

Kelley Brubaker (38:51):
Cat beds. Exactly. And so just started logging in, “Ooh, just ship that to my house.” But then the card was set up for autopay. So nobody ever looked at the credit card statement, and it wouldn’t even matter. If you looked at the credit card statement, it’d just be Amazon, Amazon, Amazon. That’s all that was on there. But it turned out it was like 86 grand that the girl – Oh my God.

(39:13):
Yeah. So it happens. So that happened a couple years ago, and then about a year ago, I’m like, “Wait a minute, I think I’m actually going to start featuring.” So on my YouTube channel, I’ve got a playlist of just every Friday. And then on my podcast this month, I’m doing Scary October. So just talking about all the crazy things that are going on in law firms, it comes down to, I think what happens is you start your firm and you do everything because you just feel that pressure. You’ve got to do it, you’re the only one that can do it, you’ll do it correctly, or if you don’t, you’re fully responsible. And then you piece by piece start to learn to delegate to staff, and then all of a sudden these floodgates open and you delegate everything to everybody. I can’t do it. I’m in court.

(40:00):
I’ve got this, I’ve got that. I can’t deal with it. You do it. And you have amazing people and you rely on them, which you should. But my conclusion on every short that I do about this is trust but verify. Yes, you need to trust people. You’re never going to grow your law firm if you don’t trust your staff to help you, but you have to verify what they’re working on and how they’re doing it to be able to know that you’re not getting ripped off. So yeah, it’s scary what’s out there for sure.

Jared Correia (40:28):
Tell people what your podcast is so they can check out Fraud Fridays.

Kelley Brubaker (40:32):
Yeah. So your Profitable Law Firm, and you were a guest a year ago. We had so much fun. And so yeah, Your Profitable Law Firm, it’s on YouTube. I put the video out and then all the podcasting apps. You can listen to it whatever your favorite podcasting app is. And I have fun. It’s definitely more about the fun side as much as you can. But yeah, Scary Friday, that was Delissi Friday. I had a conversation with her and she’s like, “Oh my God, you need to do that. It’s October.” So that has turned into my October.

Jared Correia (41:05):
It’s true.

Kelley Brubaker (41:06):
Yes, yes.

Jared Correia (41:08):
Today is Money Monday here at our recording studio. So Kelley, will you come back for one last segment?

Kelley Brubaker (41:17):
A hundred percent. Let’s do it.

Jared Correia (41:19):
Okay. We’ll be right back with Kelley Brubaker. Welcome back everybody. It’s The Counter Program. It’s a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Kelley, welcome back. This is somewhat related. How are you?

Kelley Brubaker (41:46):
This is not related. I was going to try to study trivial pursuit. I didn’t have time.

Jared Correia (41:52):
Well, you won’t

Kelley Brubaker (41:53):
Need

Jared Correia (41:53):
To… It’s semi-trivia. Okay. It does relate to money. We’re playing a game we like to call the internet pricing cavalcade of fun and danger, which is somewhat of a mouthful.

Kelley Brubaker (42:05):
Say that 10 times fast. It’s crazy. Okay.

Jared Correia (42:09):
It used to have a different name, but I wanted to do something a little bit different. So here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to show you some real items for purchase on the real internet, rip from the headlines of one of my favorite websites. This is why I’m broke.com, which is perhaps my favorite… It may be my favorite website. So Kelley, I’ll show you an image. I’ll offer you three pricing options for the displayed item, and all you have to do is guess which one is correct.

Kelley Brubaker (42:35):
Okay. Okay, let’s do it.

Jared Correia (42:37):
We have a little bit of a Halloween theme. We didn’t go all the way, but I’m sure this was part of your training at the University of Akron, so this should be easy for you. Okay. Okay. Our first item up forbid, as you can see the image on the screen, it is the Creole house from Stranger Things. Do you recognize that? Are you a Stranger

Kelley Brubaker (42:58):
Things watching? I do. Yep, I’ve been watching the Stranger Things. I’m not all the way through it, so don’t spoil it.

Jared Correia (43:03):
Okay. No

Kelley Brubaker (43:04):
Spoilers.But yeah, I’m halfway through. Yes.

Jared Correia (43:07):
Here’s the description. The Creole house from Stranger Things can actually be yours for the right price. Located in Rome, Georgia and not Hawkins, Indiana, which is actually not a real place, this charming Victorian home was built around the 1880s and has been fully restored to its former glory, apparently as a house of horrors for the evil vecna of Stranger Things fame. Kelley, how much would it set you back to buy the real Creole house from Stranger Things? Million dollars, $1.5 million, or $2 million? One, 1.5 or two million? I’m going to

Kelley Brubaker (43:50):
Have to go with 1.5. I think one is overpriced, but I think the 1.5 because it’s tied to the Stranger Things.

Jared Correia (43:57):
Look at that house. Beautiful home.

Kelley Brubaker (43:59):
Oh, it’s intricate. Oh, absolutely. I can’t even imagine what the inside looks like. Absolutely. But I’m going to go with 1.5. Are

Jared Correia (44:06):
You on the final season of Stranger Things yet?

Kelley Brubaker (44:08):
No, I think I’m on season three. I don’t remember how many seasons. There are like seven. I’m around three.

Jared Correia (44:15):
Five or

Kelley Brubaker (44:16):
Six. I’m somewhere around three.

Jared Correia (44:17):
You’ll familiarize yourself with the inside of the home.

Kelley Brubaker (44:20):
Yeah.

Jared Correia (44:20):
1.5 million is correct. Hooray.

Kelley Brubaker (44:24):
I don’t have any coins falling. I feel like I should have had a pot of gold bumped on me.

Jared Correia (44:29):
Well, this is the first time we’ve ever shown a price on screen if you’re watching on video. Oh,

Kelley Brubaker (44:33):
Awesome.

Jared Correia (44:33):
Maybe Evan, we can work in some coins falling later. Our visual effects budget is going to go through the roof here. Uh-oh,

Kelley Brubaker (44:43):
Okay. Sorry.

Jared Correia (44:45):
Item next, candy cigarettes. Do you remember these?

Kelley Brubaker (44:50):
Totally remember these. I explained this to my kids. We actually gone and bought these. These are

Jared Correia (44:55):
Impossible to get now. Can you get them locally?

Kelley Brubaker (44:58):
I have an in. I have an in. Yeah. We have a local store in Cleveland called Be a Sweetie, and they have all of it. I can get these. Oh my God.

Jared Correia (45:09):
I have seen these once locally in the last, I don’t know, 10 years here in the Northeast. Oh

Kelley Brubaker (45:15):
Yeah, I know. Be a sweetie. They sell them in the little packs and they look just like cigarettes. And yeah, you go and you blow so that the smoke comes

Jared Correia (45:23):
Out. Yes, right. There’s powder inside. Are they hard or soft? Because they’re the hard ones and the soft ones.

Kelley Brubaker (45:29):
They’re hard, and then they chew into it. There’s two different kinds. One has gum inside, and then the other one just like rock candy. You just eat it.

Jared Correia (45:38):
Right. If this is new to you, don’t eat the paper. Okay.

Kelley Brubaker (45:42):
Don’t eat the paper.

Jared Correia (45:44):
Here’s the description. Look like the coolest kid on the block without risking lung cancer by chopping down on some of these candy cigarettes. Each pack contains 10 slim and sweet candy sticks that come in colorful patterns modeled after vintage cigarette packs. All right, what are we thinking? For a package of 24, 24 cartons would be the richest man in prison. Okay. Oh

Kelley Brubaker (46:10):
Gosh, yeah.

Jared Correia (46:11):
11.99, 15.99 or 21.99, just $11.99, not $2,000. 11.99, 15.99 or 21.99. What do we got for candy cigarettes?

Kelley Brubaker (46:24):
I got to feel like 21.99 because I don’t think they’re readily available. So I think supply and demand.

Jared Correia (46:32):
These are cheap. These are not like prison cigarettes. 11.99 for 24 cartons. Get them.

Kelley Brubaker (46:38):
Yeah. If you’re a smoker –

Jared Correia (46:39):
Get them now.

Kelley Brubaker (46:40):
Convert, man.This is going to be a lot cheaper.

Jared Correia (46:43):
This is much better for you. You can die. Instead of lung cancer.

Kelley Brubaker (46:48):
Well, that’s the thing. So my ex-husband smokes and my kids, it bothers them. So that’s why I know that these are available because we’ve gone to get this cigarette, the candy ones. Try this instead. They’re like, “Dad, try this one. You need to convert.” He’s like, “Yeah, go away.”

Jared Correia (47:03):
They’re delicious. Okay. Continuing on with our Halloween theme. Next up, we have the Freddie Krueger fire pit.

Kelley Brubaker (47:13):
Oh, geez.

Jared Correia (47:15):
The Freddie Krueger fire pit is the horrifyingly awesome wood burner that’ll keep you warm and haunt your dreams. It’s handmade from steel and creates an unforgettable and hellish image of Freddie burning when it’s lit. That’s funny. This is fucking nightmare fuel right here.

Kelley Brubaker (47:32):
Is that inside or outside? Are we putting this in our fireplace inside in the house? I think it

Jared Correia (47:36):
Could be either. It looks like that is in a fireplace. I feel

Kelley Brubaker (47:39):
Like that’s in a fireplace. Outside

Jared Correia (47:39):
As

Kelley Brubaker (47:41):
Well. Right?

Jared Correia (47:42):
Yes, I do too, actually. For those who have not seen that nightmare on Elm Street franchise, Freddie is Freddie Burns. So how much do you think this bad boy would run you? Are we talking $673.21, $1,484.85, or $2,762.87? 673, 140, 2700.

Kelley Brubaker (48:12):
673.

Jared Correia (48:15):
You would have to pay $1,400. No,

Kelley Brubaker (48:20):
No way.

Jared Correia (48:21):
Crafted Kruger fire pit. Oh, that’s too much. Which will haunt your dreams and give you nightmares for the rest of your life.

Kelley Brubaker (48:28):
Oh, absolutely it would.

Jared Correia (48:30):
I mean, imagine this shit on Halloween, like kids coming up to your house and they see the Freddie Krueger fire pit ablaze.

Kelley Brubaker (48:36):
Oh my God.

Jared Correia (48:37):
Right. I’d be roasting hot dogs on this thing. It’s amazing.

Kelley Brubaker (48:40):
Oh my God. That’s crazy.

Jared Correia (48:44):
Continuing on with our Halloween theme. We have, next up, just I think a phenomenal invention that I was not actually aware existed, which is the Halloween advent calendar. I mean, it has nothing to do with Advent, but let me read the description. Okay. Build the suspense leading up to the greatest holiday of the year with this Halloween Advent calendar. This spooktacular mansion stands at a whopping 37 inches tall, fucking three feet tall, features a sturdy construction and amazing attention to detail given to every square inch. And as you can see, you have 25 little places to grab your Halloween advent gift. We’re making up holidays left and right.

Kelley Brubaker (49:33):
I feel like I should be offended that they ripped off Christmas, but

Jared Correia (49:37):
You’re

Kelley Brubaker (49:38):
Just going to borrow

Jared Correia (49:39):
Advent. This is kind of dope actually. I’m into this. I’m not a

Kelley Brubaker (49:42):
Big – Well, there’s probably dope in it, right? They only have little slots, right?

Jared Correia (49:47):
Possibly.

Kelley Brubaker (49:48):
What are we putting in there?

Jared Correia (49:49):
It’s the third day of Halloween Advent. I got some meth. Amazing.

Kelley Brubaker (49:54):
Great. Woo. Okay.

Jared Correia (49:57):
I do love this idea though. I think we should have Advent calendars for every holiday, like the fly day Advent calendar. This would be great. Okay. Oh my God. What do you think? $275.

Kelley Brubaker (50:08):
Holy mackerel.

Jared Correia (50:08):
$899 or $2,380

Kelley Brubaker (50:14):
For the Halloween

Jared Correia (50:15):
Advent calendar. $275,899 or $2,380.

Kelley Brubaker (50:20):
I kind of feel like the $8.99 because it’s big. I mean, it’s three feet tall. I mean, so if it’s three feet tall, it’s got to be about three feet wide.

Jared Correia (50:30):
Yeah,

Kelley Brubaker (50:31):
It looks like it. Yeah, the $8.99 because by the time you put all the things in it, I’m just guessing. I feel like the things of it are worth more, right?

Jared Correia (50:39):
$2,380. If you got to celebrate Halloween the right way, you better be embezzling money from that law firm account.

Kelley Brubaker (50:49):
I know, right?

Jared Correia (50:50):
2,400 bucks.

Kelley Brubaker (50:52):
Oh, geez.

Jared Correia (50:53):
I’d probably just build my own, honestly.

Kelley Brubaker (50:56):
I would have to build my own. There’s no way I’m paying that. That’s insane.

Jared Correia (50:59):
I got two more for you. Are you a pet person?

Kelley Brubaker (51:03):
I am a pet person. I’ve got a dog and two cats. What kind of animals do

Jared Correia (51:05):
You have? Dog and

Kelley Brubaker (51:06):
Two cats. This is going to

Jared Correia (51:07):
Be great for you.

(51:09):
Okay. Do you have the cursing dog collar, which I suppose could be used for cats as well? Transform your furry friend’s barks into comedic gold with the cursing dog collar. The aptly named cuss collar will turn each of your pooches barks into an offensive curse word, making this the perfect gift for the dog owner with a sense of humor or the dog owner that would like to be beaten on the street. I don’t know. One of those things. How much does it cost to translate your dog’s woof to a fuck? $40, $60, 80. I would say this is priceless, but what are they selling it for on the internet? 40, 60 or $80.

Kelley Brubaker (51:51):
I feel like 60.

Jared Correia (51:53):
Bingo. And this

Kelley Brubaker (51:55):
Would be comedic

Jared Correia (51:55):
Gold. 60 bucks.

Kelley Brubaker (51:56):
See? It would be. This would be comedic gold because my dog pisses me off a lot, so I’m sure that would actually make me laugh at him more.

Jared Correia (52:06):
Imagine if you were unaware and you have a dog cussing at you. That’d be so fucked up. It’d be great.

Kelley Brubaker (52:13):
Hey, asshole. Yeah.

Jared Correia (52:17):
Speaking of assholes, I have one more for you. Okay. It is called the Disposable Toilet Poncho. Here it is. Our model is wearing the disposable toilet poncho. It doesn’t even matter where you are, Kelley. It doesn’t. When you got to go, you got to go. With the disposable toilet poncho, you can do just that. Awesome. This portable set comes with everything you’ll need to relieve yourself when you’re out and about and there’s no toilet in sight. So Evan has just queued up the collection gear. You’ve got the poncho itself, which is important for covering yourself in public. You have a poop bag and a pee bag. Awesome. And then you have what’s referred to as a toilet cloth. So if you’re on a run and you’re stuck in the woods, you can preserve your socks. Congratulations everyone. Because

Kelley Brubaker (53:10):
That’s the thing. That’s what we care about.

Jared Correia (53:13):
Yeah. I mean, as an adult, going a long walk can be a little bit dicey.

Kelley Brubaker (53:19):
Oh, I understand. Yep. Oh my God.

Jared Correia (53:22):
How much for this invaluable item? Yeah. I mean, you’re just on the football field. I don’t know. I’m just wearing a poncho here.

Kelley Brubaker (53:31):
Just casually talking to my friends, all the other parents. Right, right. Oh, just give me a second. Oh my God.

Jared Correia (53:43):
Or two. Is this $8.85, $19.32, or $27.45?

Kelley Brubaker (53:54):
I think I’m going to have to go with 19.

Jared Correia (53:58):
You can get a toilet poncho for any number of misdeeds.

Kelley Brubaker (54:04):
Oh, geez.

Jared Correia (54:05):
11. Oh, I gave you the wrong prices. You win automatically.

Kelley Brubaker (54:11):
Oh, awesome. There I go.

Jared Correia (54:13):
Okay. So here’s a little bit of logistical background here.

Kelley Brubaker (54:16):
Okay.

Jared Correia (54:17):
The price was listed on one website is 8.85, but I double checked on Amazon and it’s 11.99. Okay. So what a deal, frankly.

Kelley Brubaker (54:29):
Oh my God. Oh yeah, that’s a deal. I mean,

Jared Correia (54:33):
When you think about it, it’s like simply cloth and a bag,

Kelley Brubaker (54:39):
But still could come handy. Priceless because this is not happening in my life. No, no, no, no.

Jared Correia (54:47):
Okay. Everyone out there, that’s the internet cavalcade of, I can’t even remember the name of it, Pricing and Danger, something like that. I’ll read it out correctly in the script. Kelley, thank you. You were a great sport helping law firms against embezzlement, telling us about web pricing for some of the strangest items we found on the internet. Thank you for coming on today.

Kelley Brubaker (55:14):
Absolutely. Thanks, Jared.

Jared Correia (55:16):
Come on back sometime.

Kelley Brubaker (55:18):
I will.

Jared Correia (55:20):
Thanks to our guest, Kelley Brubaker, the owner of Profit Scale Thrive. To learn more about Kelley and her work, visit ready for profitscalethrive.com, profitscale, thrive, all one word. The website will be in the show notes. Now, because I’ll always be a ’90s kid who, yes, used to throw a bowl for popcorn as well, don’t judge me, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I’m now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the signs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week’s playlist, I pulled together Halloween songs. That’s right. It’s scary songs for the spooky season. Ooh. And it’s brought to you by OpenAI’s new dots, agents, interconnected agents, because what’s scarier than rogue AI? I mean, aside from that dead-eyed fuck, Sam Altman, who definitely didn’t actually sponsor this podcast, join us next time when I attempt to tame a live beaver.

(56:33):
It’s true.