From Invisible to Authority with Terry L. Fossum

Karin Conroy (00:02.616)
Terry Alfossum once walked into a survival show, oldest competitor there, up against special forces operators, survival instructors, a black belt, and an actual mercenary, and he won. So he’s also a former Air Force captain and a guy who failed in sales for years before building the method that took him to the top 1% in the industry worldwide.

So that method became a number one Wall Street Journal bestseller. And here’s why I asked him on. Most lawyers I talk to are great at what they do. And some are the best in their market. And almost nobody knows it. They know they should be building their visibility. They just don’t know how. And so Terry knows why. And he’s giving you this playbook today to fix it so that you can go from being invisible.

To the lawyer that your clients actually find and remember. And Terry, welcome to Councilcast.

Terry L. Fossum (01:04.296)
Thanks so much, Karin. And I I gotta tell you, that’s why I love your show. well, it’s true. I’m I’m married to an attorney, as you know. And so I’m around a lot of attorneys. And and that some brilliant attorneys who are unknown or or or their schedules aren’t as full as they absolutely could be. Because again, they go to law school, they pass the bar, they know the law, and especially whatever they focus in on, but they don’t understand the expertise that you and your show brings to them.

Karin Conroy (01:08.354)
Thank you. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (01:23.437)
Right.

Karin Conroy (01:31.884)
Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Terry L. Fossum (01:34.034)
So they can so they can help as many people as possible and be successful.

Karin Conroy (01:36.918)
It’s this huge gap and it’s this mystery. And they just sit there. And for a lot of them, I talk to, and it’s like keeps them up at night. And it’s like, what is the mystery of this kind of being invisible? And actually, I forgot to mention the title of the show is going is from invisible to authority. So this is another key word, this authority idea that everyone is talking about because it comes into play with a lot of AI stuff. And it’s so it’s very kind of trendy.

But I want to kind of dig into what that means and like how to get there and that sort of mystery of like, okay, I know a lot of you are invisible, and that’s this is not your skill, and this is not something you were trained to do. And how do we go from being invisible and and recognizing that and first of all owning that like we need to do better, and then becoming that authority where people just know your name and understand.

You’re the answer for that. okay, so let’s talk about let’s talk about the problem first. Like where where why are they why are so many of them invisible and just kind of sitting there in that confused, miserable, I don’t know what to do stage.

Terry L. Fossum (02:50.276)
Yeah, absolutely. For for one thing, all too many try to do what everybody else is doing. And that’s one of the biggest mistakes you could possibly make in all of business. And of course, we’re not talking about the law here, we’re talking about business. And that’s the mistake they make because you go to their website, they look like everybody else, or they try to go to networking events or try to do a little bit of SEO, ASO, you know, just the the things everybody else is doing. If you want to be like everybody else and struggling.

Karin Conroy (03:08.322)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (03:18.664)
To try to get clients coming in, keep doing it, you know, definition of insanity.

Karin Conroy (03:21.74)
Right. Yeah. Okay, so I’m gonna cause I am with you a hundred percent because I’m a marketing person and I see this and I see the formula, I see the recipe, all of that. But I’m going to kind of play the the that invisible person’s role for a moment and I’m gonna say, listen,

Why should I not pick the the option that everybody else is picking? You know, like there’s a reason why Taylor Swift is so popular. Her music’s good. There’s a reason why, like the grocery stores offer these options because they’ve already tested this out. Why would I not just do the thing that everybody else is doing that is the popular choice? Because it seems like it would have been tested by those people. And so I should just do the same thing.

Terry L. Fossum (04:03.486)
Well, let’s start with the question that I love that Dr. Phil used to ask. How’s that working for you? And and let’s take let’s talk about Taylor Swift. Now, she she is, first of all, she is an amazing human being. I can’t name a single song that she sings. but I’m a raging fan of Taylor Swift. I’m a raging fan, not because of her music, but because of the person that she is.

Karin Conroy (04:09.58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Karin Conroy (04:20.686)
Two girls, so I can name them all. Yes. Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (04:31.272)
How do I know about the person that she is? Because she got on the stages. On the stages, on the she got on the podcasts like this. She got on the speaking stages. She did the things that the other musicians aren’t necessarily doing. And they think it’s all about their music. You know, that’s part of it, but it’s really about them. And guess what, attorneys? It is with you too. You need to establish trust.

Karin Conroy (04:37.6)
Yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (04:48.184)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (05:00.454)
Not just credentials, but trust. This that’s what we’re gonna talk about today is how you establish trust in your clients. So they come to you, they refer people to you. Why? Because you’re the attorney they trust.

Karin Conroy (05:02.786)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:17.582)
So explain to me the that that gap between the idea of I don’t wanna I I’m being told not to pick the common usual choice and being on the stage. Like what how does that how do we go from don’t don’t do what everybody else does and and then also get on the stage?

Terry L. Fossum (05:35.922)
Yeah, absolutely. First of all, how many attorneys have a book? Not not that many. Not that many. And if I’m looking for an attorney, let’s say elder law, and I’ve got some, and here’s a key point, folks. Listen in right now to this. I have some emotional concerns pertaining to elder law and let’s say my mom or me. I’ve got some very specific questions, some very specific topics.

Karin Conroy (05:40.214)
Right. No. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (05:55.703)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (05:59.16)
Right.

Terry L. Fossum (06:04.958)
That I have an emotional attachment to. If you write a book that specifically hits this topic, you own me. Or if I hear you speaking on this topic, you own me. I can’t wait to come to you and hire you. That’s the difference right there. You become somebody that I I see as an expert to a topic I’m emotionally attached to. Does that make sense?

Karin Conroy (06:17.602)
Yeah. Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:30.39)
Yeah. So what if I don’t want to get on a stage? I mean that’s like a little overwhelming. Are you talking about a stage, a theoretical stage or an actual stage? Okay.

Terry L. Fossum (06:40.178)
I’m talking about an actual stage. So let’s talk about the fear of speaking, okay? We all know it’s the number one fear, even above death. And I forget, well, it’s true. And I forget the comedian, the comedian that said, well, Jerry Seinfeld said, well, then that means that at a funeral, more people would rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy. Right? And I get that. And one of my favorite things in the world to do, and I mean this, is helping people get over that. I can actually help people.

Karin Conroy (06:45.376)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (06:49.856)
Yeah. I know. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (07:00.044)
Yes Yeah, it’s yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (07:10.066)
go from I’m about to wet my pants to being the most powerful they’ve ever been in their life before they get up on a stage in fifteen minutes. And I’ve I’ve done this

Karin Conroy (07:20.142)
Okay, so what why? What what difference does that make in terms of my, you know, let’s picture I’ve got this like elder law firm in Tennessee, in some, you know, mid-sized, not tiny town, but mid-sized let’s say Chattanooga. just to be specific. why do I need to get on a stage to get clients to come in and do their estate plan? What what how does that connect?

Terry L. Fossum (07:35.484)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (07:49.224)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s take a look at it from the client perspective, which is the only perspective that matters, right? Okay, so I am a client. I’ve got mom who needs to do some estate planning. Now, I s I look in online, the the modern day version of the yellow pages, and I see 25 different elder law attorneys, and they all look about the same. but at my mom’s home that she’s at, her her her care care facility, yeah, her care facility.

Karin Conroy (08:07.565)
Right.

Karin Conroy (08:15.67)
Elder care. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (08:18.38)
there’s an attorney there that speaks to my specific concerns. And I see her speaking. And I go, my gosh, that’s I get it. I I need to talk to her. Now I am chasing her. I don’t care about what I saw online or wherever else, or any ads on TV or anything. That’s the difference. That’s why you even if it’s a small one, it doesn’t matter how big you it doesn’t have to be the massive.

Karin Conroy (08:23.852)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:33.548)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (08:41.538)
That’s what I was just gonna say. So I think everybody’s picturing the Taylor Swift stage, you know, these giant stadiums, that, you know, an overwhelming just like the thousands of people. So how do you find that right stage? And like how how do you define what that right stage is?

Terry L. Fossum (08:45.287)
Right. Right.

Terry L. Fossum (09:00.136)
Where are your clients or the people that know those clients? I mean, for let’s talk, let’s talk elder law. That’s that’s one of my my wife’s major fields. so first of all, she had to stop this because she’s booking two months out. Okay. Every once in a while, though, because she she’s an amazing person. I’m so in love with my wife. She’s amazing. but but these these care facilities ask her to come in and talk about specific things. They ask her.

Now, why? Because she reached out to begin with. Now they’re asking her. And she gets so many clients just like that. It’s crazy. That’s why she had to stop doing it. So, but think of all the different places that would love to have somebody like that come in. Corporate wellness programs, all these people have aging parents. They’re thinking about it themselves. You know, of course, chambers of commerce, rotary clubs. I mean, these are all low-hanging fruit.

Karin Conroy (09:36.396)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (09:50.124)
Yeah, right.

Karin Conroy (09:57.89)
Right, right.

Terry L. Fossum (09:58.078)
That have amazing ROI.

Karin Conroy (10:00.79)
Yeah, you know, I tell this story a lot about how I launched my agency going on seventeen or eighteen years ago. so and this is kind of leading to my next question. So bear with me, because it might be a longer one. But back then in two thousand nine, two thousand ten, there the the internet was totally different. And so there was this website, Loyarist, which I know a lot of people who listen to the show also listen to their stuff.

and it was more now it’s a a different thing. It’s more of this coaching kind of organization. But at the time it was a multi-contributor sort of blog platform. And it was mostly it was all about building a solo or small law firm. And it was mostly contributors who are just you know, approved contributors submitting articles. And so I was the only person writing about marketing. And the whole audience, I’m not writing about marketing to marketing people.

I’m writing about marketing to my lawyer potential clients. So, and at the time it was brand new. And I was like, let’s just give this a shot. But this is this is where I put all my energy. And I could have I also at the time was like, I should write at these high level design, I have a design background, like these design journals and marketing, the the American Marketing Association. And I did write some articles there. Do you know how many clients that got me? Zero.

Terry L. Fossum (11:02.375)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (11:28.332)
Like that was just it. So on one hand, I still don’t think that was an entirely bad approach. And here’s my question: Because on one hand, that stuff I promoted on my website as, hey, I know what I’m talking about from a marketing perspective, and I’ve written at the AMA, which is the American Marketing Association. And then on the other hand, I said, and also you can find me over here at Lawyerist, which the audience is lawyers. So how do you balance that?

the different types of audiences that you could write to and should you have multiple angles like that.

Terry L. Fossum (12:04.027)
Okay, great question. My bottom line is ROI. I I want my clients to be from point A to point B ROI in the shortest amount possible. So we’re we’re going to quite frankly, we’re gonna sidestep the other stuff you were talking about. All the the in in yeah, in in your story’s case, AMA or whatever that might mean to the attorneys listening, and we’re gonna we’re not gonna worry about that. We’re gonna develop out that one.

Karin Conroy (12:20.642)
The AMA, yeah, like the marketing association and yeah.

Yeah. Yes, right.

Okay.

Terry L. Fossum (12:33.626)
thing that they’re going to be known for. It’s gonna be that emotional link to their clients that they want. And we’re gonna drive straight in on their book, on their TEDx talk, their stages, everything, bam, to that. I want them to own that world, to be the person everybody thinks about immediately.

Karin Conroy (12:53.134)
Should you drip in that other stuff? Over years, I have always dripped in things. Like I’ve also written for the ABA, like the American Bar Association, and you know, things like that, where I drip in that stuff. And my approach, theory, strategy behind all of that is that that goes back to authority and these trust signals. And so, like the next part of the conversation I want to get to is like talking about authority and trust. But does that kind of

factor in in your strategy or do you still think it’s sort of a s a waste of time?

Terry L. Fossum (13:27.772)
No, we we build up, build up, build up. I want to get again, I want to get my clients ROI, right? quite frankly, I’m not cheap. And I want them to make their money back. so we’re gonna get them that, we’re gonna get that low-hanging fruit, we’re gonna get them those wins right away. We’re also building up their authority stack. So when they go to those higher level stages, those higher level publications, et cetera, they’ve already got all of these credentials, they’re already the author of, and they’re a TEDx speaker, et cetera. So talk about being able to

Karin Conroy (13:30.092)
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (13:53.687)
Okay.

Terry L. Fossum (13:56.926)
Get on those higher authority stages, publications, et cetera. We built up your credibility. So the door is open for you.

Karin Conroy (13:59.328)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (14:05.166)
Okay, so when you talk about kind of focusing in on those main points of ROI, that’s sort of that initial strategy. And then there is a more broad, longer term strategy where you like add more elements and kind of build other pieces in with like different avenues with that strategically make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (14:23.364)
Absolutely. You you want to get that ball rolling. As as a mechanical engineer I talk about the coefficient of sliding or starting friction. I know I’m a geek, right? You gotta you gotta get that ball rolling to begin with. Once you get that ball rolling, baby it just rolls faster and faster.

Karin Conroy (14:30.476)
Yeah. I love it. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (14:39.286)
Okay, so the ball that we’re talking about that we’re rolling is trust and authority. Like I think you know, a lot of people would look at that and think, I don’t know, what they would define that as like PR or they might put it in some other little box, but the goal there and the purpose that we’re doing that is trust and authority. So let’s kind of back into that and talk about like the psychology around that. How does it work and what

Terry L. Fossum (14:58.705)
Absolutely.

Karin Conroy (15:07.506)
What works about it? How do you get people to trust you through these stages and these kind of doing these things that we’re talking about?

Terry L. Fossum (15:15.752)
Well, let’s talk about the critical nature of it first of all. And I don’t mean to be cruel from what I’m about to say. Again, the most important person of my entire life, the person I trust the most with everything of mine, is an attorney. But that’s a big disclaimer because let’s talk about two of the most untrusted jobs, profession, thank you, you could do car sales and attorneys.

Karin Conroy (15:26.988)
Yeah. Okay, that’s a big disclaimer.

Karin Conroy (15:38.818)
Professionals. Yeah.

Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (15:43.388)
I’m sorry, but we all know it’s true, right? It’s not right. It’s it’s poorly founded, but that’s been the reputation. Thus the attorney jokes. Okay, so we understand that’s the biggest thing that we need to overcome of everything. That’s the importance of this right now. So, how do you do that? You help them. You you answer their questions, you you take again that emotional question that’s in them. So that the emotions are high on that, and you lower that.

Karin Conroy (15:45.666)
Yep. Yep.

Karin Conroy (15:56.908)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (16:12.776)
What one of the many things my wife does amazingly well with her elder law practice is when these people come in, they many of them have just had a death of a spouse, et cetera. Their their emotions are high, their their their concerns are high, everything is really high. She helps them bring it down. If you can do that with an audience, even small audience, you win. You you own them, and I mean that in a very good way. You you’ve won their trust. And that’s everything.

Karin Conroy (16:21.784)
Sure, yeah.

Karin Conroy (16:29.357)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (16:35.116)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (16:40.286)
So all right, so what’s the opposite of that? What it what what do you see people doing wrong in terms of building trust and kind of thinking that they’re doing the right thing? And I think this is gonna go back to this idea of like copying the guy down the street. Cause I do see so much FOMO, the fear of missing out, where like it’s you know, that most of my initial conversations with potential clients or clients talk about.

There’s one firm and it’s like this other firm that is just this thorn in their side. And they have been watching them and sort of stalking them for who knows how long. And as soon as I start talking about, okay, who are your competitors? Who should we look at? Who does a good job of whatever we’re talking about? And they it’s quick. Like they’ve got it right there. And everybody listening probably knows exactly the name of some other firm that I’m talking about, right? And and then they think that’s the right answer.

Terry L. Fossum (17:33.032)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (17:39.34)
That that is what they should be doing. That th by not doing that, they’re not getting that level of success or whatever it is. What do you see as the opposite of everything you’re describing and the mistakes people make when it comes to all of this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (17:55.582)
First of all, they try to be like that person. It’s one of the worst things they could possibly do. Guess what? They’ve they’ve already got that position. Okay. Don’t try for that position. Guess how they got that position? Because they did something different from what they were seeing. So what you want to do is do something different than what they’re doing. And the best thing you could possibly do, listen, please, everybody, listen. Actually care. Actually care.

Karin Conroy (18:04.866)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (18:09.516)
Yeah. Right.

Terry L. Fossum (18:24.702)
Cause when you actually care about your client, then you focus on the things that they actually care about. And that’s how you win that trust and that authority. Don’t worry about I’ve got to have better commercials or, you know, better marketing or no. Care and provide them with things that help them.

Karin Conroy (18:43.916)
Yeah, and you know, this I this episode’s not going to be a heavy AI focused episode because it’s just not what we’re talking about. But I will put this one little nugget in this when you think about what that means to actually care and what that how that ripples out. That ripples out that if you actually care, you’re gonna do good work because you care about getting the results that your client wants and you care about doing good work and making sure that.

you know, the the things are done that needs to be done. And this being human is another, you know, way of caring, is the part that AI cannot replicate. And so this is what sets your firm apart. And then this is what you can support with AI stuff, but it starts with the caring and the human and the humanity piece of your work. And then it’s supported with the AI.

Terry L. Fossum (19:39.784)
Yeah, and we could have a full episode on AI. I work with AI about six six hours a day. I I bet you do. but but yeah, the the bottom line is sure, if you’re smart on how you do it, absolutely. You could use AI for your research and everything to help them. But it starts with the trust. That’s all that matters.

Karin Conroy (19:42.144)
Yeah, I have lots of those. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (19:53.75)
Yes, right. Yes. Yep. Okay. So the other big topic that you talk a lot about is reinvention. And so let’s kind of pull that in here because I do think that’s this huge element of everything we’re talking about. So this idea, first of all, that there’s like this fear of getting on the stage and this resistance to all of that. And

that they people think that their past success is just gonna carry them through and they just like hold on to that white knuckle through their entire life. I will say I saw this amazing commencement speech. this is gonna be live towards the end of summer, but this is we’re recording spring. And Daniel Pink, who talks about the science of motivation, who I absolutely love.

Did this amazing commencement speech at a design school this week. And he talked about the difference, once again, with design and having taste and how this is going to be, you know, a differentiator in in these creative people’s lives going forward from them between them and AI. And one thing that he talked about is that as a creative person, that you cannot consider yourself creative if you have one.

Opinion, thought, approach, design, whatever, and hold on to that forever and never change. So let’s talk about reinvention with that in mind. Yes. What what is what is the deal with people’s resistance to this?

Terry L. Fossum (21:31.934)
Right on. You have done your research on me. That’s impressive. Right on.

Terry L. Fossum (21:42.588)
Okay, well, so much to unwrap. First of all, note that you talked about somebody you saw on stage. There’s our point, baby, right there. and and that just shows the authority that a stage gives to you. and it’s absolutely true. Okay, why do people resist change? God, we could I I can we can have another episode on this. What three hours easy. Okay. Let we’re we might we might talk about some real serious science here. Okay.

Karin Conroy (21:49.344)
Yes, yes.

Karin Conroy (21:56.908)
Yes. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (22:03.362)
We could go for three hours.

Karin Conroy (22:12.534)
Okay. Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (22:12.964)
your comfort zone. Your bottom bottom line is your comfort zone. We call it comfort zone for a reason you’re comfortable. We associate pain with getting out of our comfort zone. Now, okay, I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna hit a different subject real quick here. and we can cover a different time. Y’all can look it up, whatever you want to do. The oxcar technique is a a goal achieving technique that that I’ve established that’s been called the biggest.

Karin Conroy (22:17.261)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (22:41.202)
advancement in the science of goal setting in recent history by one of the 50 best brains in science. What it teaches is, and this is important for the attorneys as well, is that okay, if you’re having that resistance to resistance to change because you’re only using part of the equation, we all do the positive visualization. You know, I want my practice to succeed. I’m visualizing, I’ve got my schedule is full, millions of dollars and all of that. And that’s cool, that’s pleasure. But prospect theory.

Karin Conroy (23:00.588)
Yes. Millions of dollars. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (23:11.016)
Won the Nobel prize when associated with economics, taught us that we will do more to avoid pain than to go toward pleasure. So, therefore, I don’t care how much positive visualization you do, it will not overcome the pain of getting out of your comfort zone. You have to establish what I call a failure scenario, something that’s more painful. Listen, if you don’t change, nothing’s gonna change. And guess what? I I’ll take that back. It is going to change. You’re gonna die in the vine. Why?

Karin Conroy (23:17.558)
Yeah. Yes.

Karin Conroy (23:26.626)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (23:40.456)
Because other people are changing, other people are taking over, other people are doing those things they need to do. If you don’t, you will die on the vine.

Karin Conroy (23:48.524)
My former CEO at Century 21, before I did all this, I was the director of marketing at Century 21. And he used to say, if you’re not growing, you’re dying. Period. Like that’s it. There’s only two, it’s black and white. You’re either growing or dying. and that stayed with me for a long time because people feel, but they just feel that. Like when you say comfort zone, I get sort of like warm and fuzzy. It sounds very positive, right? So how do we, how do we get through that?

Terry L. Fossum (23:56.272)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yep.

Terry L. Fossum (24:10.631)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (24:18.216)
Well, again, we’ll do just a little bit more on ox pox card technique, then we’ll move on from there. because I I do another book that I just came out with, and it’s based on the number one bestseller on the Wall Street Journal, Never Miss a Goal Again. Might be worth looking up. Yeah, it’s quite frankly, it’s a really good book. but it really dives into and gives examples of how to do this. You have to establish and and a lot of people who are the the bunnies and unicorns people, you know, just think happy thoughts and it’ll happen. Okay. Sorry, y’all.

Karin Conroy (24:21.354)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (24:31.38)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (24:45.718)
Yes, yes. This is why I don’t have mindset people on this show. When they talk about mindset, and I get a lot of pitches for this show, if they use the word mindset, I’m like, nope, not that’s not it. Because that’s first of all, it’s just not my personality. I am very dry. I am very cut to the cut cut to the chase. Let’s talk about actions and actionable functional results. and what you’re talking about, and that’s why I kind of cut in here because

Terry L. Fossum (24:57.096)
Ha ha ha.

Terry L. Fossum (25:07.644)
Right. Right.

Karin Conroy (25:13.728)
I don’t want this to sound like a mindset conversation. We’re not talking about mindset. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (25:15.996)
Right, right. Amen. Amen. What what we’re talking about again is something that is that that works. If you need to be kicked in the butt, which we all do, that’s you don’t you don’t get pulled out of the comfort zone. You get kicked out of the comfort zone. Quick example. so I was very, very blessed in direct sales, okay, but I failed for years and years because I was doing buddies and unicorns, visualize it, and it’ll come and all that kind of crap, right? Okay, and the mindset and b beaches of the world. Now that stuff, it’s got a place, it really does.

Karin Conroy (25:28.919)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (25:40.098)
Right. The mindset stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (25:46.182)
I’m my happiest in a tent or doing survival in the Amazon jungle. Okay. I don’t care about big cars, fancy house. Do I have it? Sure. That’s not what drove me. What drove me is I didn’t want to be poor. Okay. Grow growing up, I was told I would never grow up to be anything. That’s what a neighbor told my father shortly before he was killed. the my father, not the neighbor, although that’s a thought. That’s a thought. but

Karin Conroy (25:53.718)
Yeah. Right.

Yes, yes.

Karin Conroy (26:06.778)
wow.

Terry L. Fossum (26:10.162)
So what drove me as I’m failing, that got me out of my comfort zone, because I’m, believe it or not, an introvert. And again, I’ve already told you I’m a self-professed geek. Is not those the other things. It was yeah, it wasn’t the glory or other riches. It was I I don’t want to fail. So what I did, very quick training for everybody, you want bottom line, I did a failure scenario. Here’s what it looks like if I don’t do the things I need to do. Wrote that out. You read that, you’re

Karin Conroy (26:21.25)
The glory.

Karin Conroy (26:26.423)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (26:38.822)
Psyche will cry out, I will not let that happen. I’ll do whatever it takes. Next thing, your daily action plan, which you have to do so the failure scenario does not happen. It kicks you out of it. Then your success scenario. Then your okay, here’s what millions of dollars, et cetera, et cetera. And that’s you that’s why the the some of the top minds in business and self-improvement and money in the world have endorsed this book and this plan.

Karin Conroy (27:04.416)
Okay, so as you’re describing that, I’m picturing these moments of reinvention in my own journey. You know, I hate that phrase, it kind of goes with mindset. and I was kicked out of the comfort zone 100%. And I’m picturing, I really feel like this is a moment for a lot of law firms because they, you know, so many of my initial conversations start with SEO and they’re freaking out about.

AI search and all of that stuff and they’re seeing their numbers and and where the economy is, you know, challenging for some for some firms to say the least. so I want to describe a couple moments for me that were those kind of being kicked out of the comfort zone because honestly, I think this is more common than being but than choosing to reinvent, right? so if you’re kind of facing this, so one moment.

Terry L. Fossum (27:34.515)
Right.

Terry L. Fossum (27:41.106)
Yeah, yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (27:58.642)
Yes, yes.

Karin Conroy (28:03.136)
was lawyerist that that website that I was describing earlier used to be initially the this kind of multi-contributor blog platform. They went through many, many journeys, like they’re in a totally different place, like I said earlier. But at one part of their journey, they decided to make websites. Yes. Part of that was because they were sending me paid leads and they could see

Terry L. Fossum (28:23.397)
wow, wow. Okay, all right.

Karin Conroy (28:33.016)
How much a website project was valued. And they were like, hey, let’s do that. Seems pretty easy, right? Like, let’s, you know. Okay. So then I’m trying to make this story somewhat succinct. So then they, who were also lawyers at the time, realized the fun of working with lawyers. and so they went through that. We went through.

Terry L. Fossum (28:35.57)
Right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (28:59.394)
A journey there where they it was probably a year, year and a half where they did this. And all of a sudden, so at the time I had a baby, I think she was a few months old. And I notoriously hate networking. I hate the events, I hate the conferences, I hate, hate, like they burn to my core. Guess who is showing up with a six-month-old baby to these conferences? Because

Terry L. Fossum (29:20.456)
Yeah. Yes, yes, understood.

Karin Conroy (29:29.152)
My biggest competitor and source of leads was my biggest source of leads was now my competitor. So I’m there and that laun and I’m like rethinking. I’m like looking at my my whole structure of my business. I’m like, okay, where’s my competitive advantage? How can I be above these guys? Whatever. That didn’t happen because I chose it. That just happened because they came in. The the happy end of that story is that they, after a while, they deal realized that this was a

Terry L. Fossum (29:34.248)
Okay.

Terry L. Fossum (29:49.384)
Right.

Karin Conroy (29:57.194)
way more of a pain than it was worth. And they started sending me the leads. So it ended up it was all sunshine and rainbows in the end. But at that moment, I was in a full panic. And they were entirely my full source of leads. So so let’s talk about people being in that panic moment. And because really I honestly think that’s way more likely scenario.

Terry L. Fossum (29:59.741)
Right.

Karin Conroy (30:24.344)
Than people just deciding, it’s Tuesday, I’m gonna reinvent myself.

Terry L. Fossum (30:28.434)
Right, right. No, that that’s the best place you could possibly be. It is in that. Because that then then you finally internalize and and emotionally, not not just intellectually, but emotionally internalized that I have to do something different. You finally reached more pain than the pain of getting out of your comfort zone. That’s where you needed to get to. You know, I I didn’t win a survival show because, you know, I I wanted to

Karin Conroy (30:33.186)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (30:49.324)
Yes. Right.

Terry L. Fossum (30:56.51)
To win a quarter million dollars, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I I won it because get this. I was representing all the Boy Scouts of America in my Scoutmaster uniform. And I didn’t want Boy Scouts of America to look like idiots. That’s why I won the show. That’s all I cared about. That’s all I care. That’s what drove me. So yeah, absolutely. This is the best place you could possibly be. And by the way, without that, if I just gone on in my own, you know, outdoor clothes, doubt I would ever have won.

Karin Conroy (31:04.969)
Nice.

Karin Conroy (31:09.944)
So you were concerned about their reputation? Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (31:26.498)
Right, because you became that guy, like the Boy Scouts guy. And like that was sort of this title and whole persona around you. Okay, so let’s speak to those people that are in that moment. Like maybe like I’ve I’m seeing it all over LinkedIn. Maybe they just got laid off. You know, there’s so much going on where firms think that they can manage a whole bunch of this stuff with AI or whatever the case, maybe economically they just, you know.

Terry L. Fossum (31:26.824)
Doubt it. I became that guy. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (31:52.615)
Right.

Karin Conroy (31:54.754)
They don’t have the funds or whatever. and they’re okay, like this is my moment. I’m gonna reinvent, I’m gonna go out on my own, I’m gonna start a new firm, or I’m gonna whatever that is, that little like that flame that you now need to actually do. So, how do they become this obvious choice?

Terry L. Fossum (32:13.766)
Okay, fantastic. Wow, so much to talk about on this one. So much. I love it. I love it. f first of all, and I’m I’m not just here to push a book. Again, I’m not interested, I’m not interested in making tens of dollars from from the book, but get the book. because that’s gonna be your motivational thing that’s gonna really help you push through this. I yeah. Well

Karin Conroy (32:16.172)
Yeah, I know. I’ve got some a whole outline.

Karin Conroy (32:31.852)
And you mean your book, ’cause we’re gonna talk about another book in in a minute, but tell what’s your book?

Terry L. Fossum (32:37.904)
Several. but the the one that I recommend for this standpoint is never miss a goal again. You can get it on Amazon right now. because that’s gonna give you that structure we were talking about with the ox cart technique. and it’s it’s going to help you. but from there, understand and formulate this in your mind. ’cause I I am very much about the the psychological aspects of all of it. Again, a a self-professed geek. Okay, this is not rock bottom for you. Listen.

Karin Conroy (32:38.722)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (32:43.736)
Okay.

Karin Conroy (32:48.727)
Yes.

Karin Conroy (33:04.853)
Yes, yes.

Terry L. Fossum (33:06.066)
Yeah, this is not rock bottom. This is your new starting point. That’s what this is. What whatever higher purpose you believe in, I don’t care. All right. But it, God put you there. Okay? Now you got two choices. Quit or fight. Quit or fight. What’s your choice? Make it right now. Make it right now. Quit or fight. And if it’s fight, then let’s fight. Let’s do this thing. Develop out your strategy.

Karin Conroy (33:10.178)
Yeah. Yep.

Karin Conroy (33:23.864)
Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (33:31.715)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (33:34.3)
Right away, and again, I by the way, as an introvert, I hate networking events also. I I do it’s my it’s my worst thing. You know, I’ll I will face a grizzly bear. How do I know? Because I’ve done it a few times. Before I will go to a flipping networking event, go, hi, I’m Terry. I you know. So here here’s how I do it. Here’s how I excel at it. If I guess I’ll say, I’m the guy speaking. When you’re the guy speaking, it then

Karin Conroy (33:38.828)
Yeah, just hate it. Yes.

Karin Conroy (33:50.304)
Yeah, what do you do? Ugh Yeah.

Karin Conroy (34:00.13)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (34:02.696)
People come up to you. I don’t have to introduce myself and chase them and hope they like me and all that crap. It’s it’s the deal.

Karin Conroy (34:04.551)
Yes.

That’s it. That’s it. It totally changes the whole dynamic because now it’s not someone looking you in the eye thinking, what do they want from me? Now it’s I already have some understanding of what they’re who they are, what they’re talking about. And it’s a totally different dynamic. Yeah, I think that’s it entirely. Plus, they don’t feel like you’re wanting something from from them. Like it’s it’s a whole different thing. So how do you figure that all out? How do you

Terry L. Fossum (34:12.872)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (34:26.419)
Yeah, yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (34:31.923)
Right.

Karin Conroy (34:37.196)
Let’s say you have not done speaking engagements and stuff before. Start small. What where what’s where’s the first step?

Terry L. Fossum (34:44.306)
Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that’s what I work with my clients on, is exactly that. but for the bottom line for the listeners here, find that one emotional topic that your clients that you want have and and become the expert on that. Reach out to the small venues ND that we talked about earlier, just the the chambers, the the care facilities, what whatever your financial planners, you know, what whatever

Karin Conroy (35:10.637)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (35:13.2)
churches is a big one. A lot of people don’t think about. Are you kidding me? It couldn’t be better. and and

Karin Conroy (35:16.31)
Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Because there’s a certain level of trust there with with the church or whatever your, you know, whatever your organization is where you’re coming in and they already feel like they know a little bit about you just being in that in that space. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (35:22.992)
Absolutely.

Terry L. Fossum (35:33.956)
Absolutely. You you’ve got the trust now of the pastor or of the organization or of the podcast host or whatever it might be. Whole different ballgame. And guess what? Those people are begging for speakers, rotary clubs, lions clubs, etc. They’re begging. Yeah. Absolutely. And

Karin Conroy (35:38.092)
Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (35:47.402)
Yeah, totally. Totally. Please fill our calendar. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you’re a good one on top of it, they will bring you back because they can count on that. Yeah. So I have this thing that I started this year on this podcast called the Council Cast Collaborators. I love alliterations. We yeah, I use a lot of C’s. and it’s the exactly what we’re describ describing.

Terry L. Fossum (35:57.808)
And and they will tell their friends. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (36:13.312)
I’ve had this is going into the fifth year of this podcast. So I’ve had so many really great guests where when I’m looking to talk about a certain topic, it’s like, why don’t I just go back to that great person who, first of all, I know they got a good microphone, they got the good setup. Like that alone is a hurdle that I never know until I turn on the camera and I’m like, are you there? Like, are you are you good? so they’ve got that, but then they also had some great stuff to say.

Terry L. Fossum (36:35.954)
man. man.

Karin Conroy (36:41.58)
And so from the kind of perspective of the platform or the a the one holding the audience, I’m of course gonna go back and go through that that network of people that I already know to be tried and true versus some cold random person. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (36:57.778)
Yeah, yeah. And can you imagine being that person at that church, you know, the mega church or the small church or the rotary club or the or the or the or the that that their clients or congregation or whatever go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re they’re I’m so glad they’re back because I wanted to talk to them. I mean I’ve I’ve had clients like I just had one recently, just came off her TEDx stage, walked off stage, didn’t even leave the event yet, and somebody

Karin Conroy (37:01.622)
Yeah. Right.

Karin Conroy (37:07.618)
Exactly.

Karin Conroy (37:16.108)
Yes. And

Karin Conroy (37:21.612)
Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (37:26.93)
Better open arms and said, I want you to come talk to 300 millionaires for me. Just like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (37:30.656)
Nice. That’s how it works though. That’s how it all works. Yeah. okay. So it is time for the book review section. And I know you have a good one. So Terry, what’s the book that you’re gonna recommend for the audience and we’re gonna add to the library today?

Terry L. Fossum (37:45.84)
Okay, boys in the boat. Boys in the boat. Okay, this is so get this. And I like we talked about, I understand I’m a number one bestselling author on Wall Street Journal, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you know, all these kinds of stuff right? I don’t read that much. I I can’t slow down long enough to read.

Karin Conroy (37:47.821)
What is this?

Karin Conroy (37:57.144)
Yeah.

I hear that all the time. And I do think this is kind of a a factor of the way the world is right now and just the amount of information and data that’s being thrown at us. And so it’s like at some point it’s too much. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (38:12.636)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (38:16.966)
Right. But the the most important thing you could possibly do, in my opinion, is inspire yourself. Inspire, get read inspiring stories. Boys in the Boat was a book I I actually couldn’t put down. It’s like one of the very few ever. And now they’ve turned it into a movie. Do not watch the movie first. Read the book first. I know, no, read the book.

Karin Conroy (38:24.982)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (38:32.994)
Nice.

Karin Conroy (38:37.94)
good. Okay. You know everybody’s gonna take the shortcut. What’s it about?

Terry L. Fossum (38:43.698)
So it’s and I forget the university if it’s Yale, but one of the one of the the the big ones, and a and their rowing club. They had yeah, it they’re they had a a losing rowing club. This guy comes from absolute poverty and is able to get in there, tells all of that story and all of those things.

Karin Conroy (38:50.398)
Karin Conroy (38:54.819)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (39:03.5)
And it’s all the inspiration and the the big warm fuzzy all that. What’s the is it Chariots of Fire that was the one in the eighties that was that a rowing club or what was that? I feel like there was a some other iconic rowing movie from like decades ago and I’m like showing my age with that, but

Terry L. Fossum (39:22.74)
I was gonna say, I don’t know, that’s that’s before my time, K Karin. Whatever. I don’t I remember the movie. I don’t remember what it was about exactly. I remember the the music, right?

Karin Conroy (39:31.318)
I feel like I feel like they were talking about running, but maybe there was a rowing scene or something where there’s just that like iconic, like peaceful visual of those rowing teams out on those rivers that is just beautiful. That sounds really good. okay, so is the movie already out? Cause I know people are gonna want to jump to that. Okay, okay.

Terry L. Fossum (39:36.852)
Yeah, I don’t know.

Terry L. Fossum (39:43.313)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (39:48.785)
It it is

Don’t watch the movie first. yeah, I mean it it is already out. And it’s a good movie. It’s a good movie. It’s just not it as all of them, it can’t take in everything of the book and doesn’t to me inspire the the the the emotion that the book does. It’s very well written.

Karin Conroy (40:07.04)
Yeah. Well, I think that there’s like a handful of words that keep spire we keep spiraling around. There’s the motivation, the authority, and being invisible, but there’s also this inspiration that kind of brings all of this back. And I think that ties to the idea of reinvention too. Like you inspiration’s kind of a nice way of saying it because the way you’re describing it is reinvention is not gonna happen just with this sort of idea.

And I we I think we all know this to be true. I mean, how many like times have you written down an idea or had a thought in your mind and it just sits there and festers and like nothing ever happens with it? so I don’t know what’s the word that would be better around reinvention than than inspiration? Because I feel like there that word that’s like getting you up off your butt to to make things happen. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (41:00.794)
It’s true. It’s it’s 100% true. I mean, I the the word that came to me was pain. Because you’ve got to create a scenario in your mind, and you’ve got to face it, that that is more painful than the pain of getting out of that comfort zone. You know, you’re you’re you’re afraid to go to networking events. too bad. You’re more afraid of failing. You know, now now there’s better ways to do it. There’s more strategic ways to do a book and TEDxes and Networking, and that’s what we do.

Karin Conroy (41:05.837)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (41:20.844)
Right. Right.

Terry L. Fossum (41:28.904)
But the bottom line is if you’ve created that pain scenario more, it’ll kick you in the butt. Now you must end up, this is important for everybody. I I want everybody to hear this. Those three pages I talked about are in order for a good reason. Okay. To begin with, it’s gonna cause the pain, kick you in the butt, make you want to do the action plan, but then end up with the success scenario, the thing that makes you feel inspired, that makes you feel good, warm, fuzzy, etc. Okay. Critical you end up with that emotion.

Karin Conroy (41:54.551)
Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and while you were describing that, I was thinking about like this from the client perspective too. Because you know, in some practice areas, there is that sort of impetus that gets them to make the phone call. And it’s, you know, some dark scenario or whatever. But in a lot of situations, those clients need to feel that pain and make that phone call happen also. And so from

Terry L. Fossum (41:58.398)
But you gotta do the pain first.

Terry L. Fossum (42:18.867)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (42:28.062)
A marketing side, how do you speak to that to get that action happening from the client?

Terry L. Fossum (42:35.25)
Yeah, no, that’s that’s a great question. And first of all, I want to say for any of the the law firm leaders who are listening to this, you do not create the failure scenario for your your attorneys or your paralegals. You don’t say if you don’t get ex billable hours, you’re out of here. That does not work. They have to come up with it them because then it’s coming from somebody else. That’s somebody putting their thumb down on you. That has to be inspiration and a kick in the butt from within. You have to kick your own butt.

Karin Conroy (42:52.748)
Right. Okay, why?

Karin Conroy (43:02.806)
Okay, so how do you make that happen?

Terry L. Fossum (43:04.978)
You at as the the leader, that’s more of a discussion than than we have time for at this point. but well, read read the book, but that’s also when I do that. And I’m actually starting to do more of that because again, it’s so helpful, where you have a third party come in, me or it and or my team, because that’s that’s my intellectual property. And and if and and therefore it’s somebody else working with those individuals to build it themselves.

Karin Conroy (43:07.64)
Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:12.852)
Read the book.

Karin Conroy (43:21.175)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (43:34.614)
Yeah. So it’s not something you have inherently in you. This is something you need to be trained to do to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (43:34.704)
It’s not the leaders putting their thumb down critical.

Terry L. Fossum (43:40.526)
It really is. It really is. Absolutely. Now, from your client perspective, you hit them with one of their pain points, and they all have pain points. You know, they they are afraid that if mom needs to go into long-term care, they’re not going to be able to pay for it. Okay. The pain points are already there. You just identify them and become the planned, the action plan, and the success scenario for that.

Karin Conroy (43:55.074)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Karin Conroy (44:05.142)
Yeah. And while you were while you were kind of describing, like, okay, so how do you h help a leader do this within your team? I’m thinking s of someone asking me, well, how do you set up the strategy for a marketing campaign? And it’s like, okay, well, I’m not going to lay that out for you in the next 20 seconds because this has taken years and years to develop. And so what you’re describing is a combination of the training for that leadership combined with that marketing campaign. And that’s not something we’re going to explain to you right now.

Terry L. Fossum (44:21.118)
Right.

Terry L. Fossum (44:32.403)
You can’t.

Karin Conroy (44:32.61)
We’re gonna tell you that that’s what’s necessary. But the work, because we’re not explaining it, doesn’t mean that it’s simple and straightforward. This is the the in-depth, really detailed analysis that we’re gonna go into and figure out of what works for your firm and how we’re gonna address that and you know, all of the messaging and all of the the elements that go into that, that this is not part of this show.

Terry L. Fossum (44:39.902)
Right.

Terry L. Fossum (45:00.946)
Well, it’s it’s true. And and again, from the attorney standpoint, you know, I my my wife, you know, could could say, yeah, we’re gonna do a probate for you as an example. Okay. Sounds simple, sounds easy, maybe there’s a form to fill out. No, you’ve got her decades of expertise and seeing what fails horribly if you don’t do it right, and what works if you do it right.

Karin Conroy (45:11.682)
Yeah, yeah.

Karin Conroy (45:18.349)
Right.

Right. Exactly. Right.

Terry L. Fossum (45:25.606)
And the same thing with you, same thing with me. We’ve got the the decades of experience in our field that you want to apply to your practice.

Karin Conroy (45:27.915)
Exactly.

Karin Conroy (45:33.324)
Right. And we’re not gonna give that to you in a nutshell in some little 20 second clip on a podcast. Like it’s just yeah. Right. And this should be. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So Terry, what’s the action item that everyone after listening to all of this, because there’s there’s so many layers of all the different things we’ve discussed.

Terry L. Fossum (45:38.782)
Can’t do it. It’s impossible. Yeah. Yeah, and it should be. Or or we’re not worth our our salt, as my dad would have said.

Karin Conroy (45:58.846)
And the book and the, you know, all of the being invisible combined with kind of reinvention and h but then pulling that all together to become some sort of authority figure. What’s the first thing that someone should do after listening to this episode?

Terry L. Fossum (46:14.408)
Decide. Decide. You know, that’s the bottom line. You know, if if you want to continue doing what you’re gonna do, what you’ve been doing, fantastic, rock and roll. My apologies. And I mean that because then I didn’t get the point across enough to you. And I apologize and take ownership for that. But on the other hand, decide if you’re going to do something different. You have been given just on this podcast alone a lot of tools.

Karin Conroy (46:42.413)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (46:42.66)
And and a lot of steps that you can take right now. Take those steps. Decide and act right now. Do not wait, or that comfort zone will continue to pull you in and pull you in and pull you in. Kick yourself in the butt. Decide, take action now.

Karin Conroy (47:02.498)
Yeah, because well, and I would assume that their their butt’s getting kicked in some other way, you know, like in a lot of situations that that that part of that decision’s already done. Like there’s that there’s a kick there and now they’re kind of in a freak out mode. So it’s that second part. It’s the now you just need to take action. Now you need to get up off your butt and go do something.

Terry L. Fossum (47:13.94)
Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (47:26.29)
I I want to leave with with a a story that I think will will hit home, hopefully. and it’s about when somebody has hypothermia. Now, we we think you know they have hypothermia, they die. No, that’s not exactly how it works. And again, I’ve I’ve done solo trek in the Arctic Circle. I’ve I’ve gone and done you know camping in in sub-zero double digits, all that sort of thing. I know a little bit about hypothermia. yes, I am weird. So here’s the deal.

Karin Conroy (47:50.998)
Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Minneapolis. I know a little bit about it too. A little bit. Yeah.

Terry L. Fossum (47:55.558)
You know a little bit about it too. Yeah, absolutely. So when you get hypothermia, what starts to begin with is you start shaking, right? When you when you get cold, you start shaking. That’s your body’s response, trying to create heat, actually. It’s trying to take some action. But if you don’t take that action, if you don’t do something about it, then you stop shivering. And you’re not cold anymore. And you fall asleep and you die. That’s what’s happening.

Karin Conroy (48:04.205)
Mm-hmm.

Karin Conroy (48:20.162)
Yeah. Yes.

Terry L. Fossum (48:25.118)
To a lot of people right now. They’re getting hypothermia and they don’t realize it. They might do a little bit to begin with, they might shake, that might take a little bit of action to begin with, but then they don’t. And that’s what happens. Listen, if you’re starting to shake, you’ve got hypothermia, take action now.

Karin Conroy (48:33.708)
Yep. Yes.

Karin Conroy (48:40.824)
That’s good. That’s good. Yeah. Right. Awesome. Terry L Fossum is the founder of the Stage Advantage. Thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation.

Terry L. Fossum (48:53.05)
my pleasure. I agree. This that great getting to know you, Karin. I really appreciate you again. Everything you’re doing for attorneys. It’s so critical and great to be part of your show.

Karin Conroy (49:01.536)
Yeah, totally. Thanks.